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Message
re: Bill Nye Smears Ken Ham
Posted on 2/11/14 at 7:37 pm to Roger Klarvin
Posted on 2/11/14 at 7:37 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:We can go at this as long as you want to continue to embarrass yourself
it is my belief you are dancing around the issue and trying to find loopholes in the original questioned posed to you.
You said "there is a very narrow and specific set of requirements for salvation."
Which has nothing whatsoever with:
Does the catholic church officially deny the divinity of Christ, the resurrection, etc.?
Does it say someone can deny those things and be a catholic?
"There is a very narrow and specific set of requirements for salvation" is false.
You were shown it was false.
You've tried to change the subject, but the fact remains you were wrong.
Not debatable.
Not disputable.
But I'm happy to point it out again if you'd like.
1
Posted on 2/11/14 at 7:41 pm to NC_Tigah
And what do you think the tenets of Christianity are?
Posted on 2/11/14 at 7:42 pm to TheDoc
quote:
And what do you think the tenets of Christianity are?
The golden rule:
Do one to others, before they do one to you.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 7:43 pm to NC_Tigah
Wut
Posted on 2/11/14 at 7:44 pm to TheDoc
quote:Did I get it wrong?
Wut
Posted on 2/11/14 at 7:46 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The golden rule:
Do one to others, before they do one to you.
Annnnd we're done
The intellectual dishonesty is officially too much for me to bare. Peace.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 8:00 pm to TheDoc
quote:Seriously though, I have my own beliefs.
And what do you think the tenets of Christianity are?
They're solely mine. They may or may not be reflective or wholly inclusive of particular "tenets" of Christianity. Rote and recipes aren't really my thing.
Generally, I also have a deep respect for nonviolent, self-improving belief systems, including atheism. Someone earlier was running on Buddhism. I think it is a wonderful faith. Tons of eclectic philosophy. Great history. Beautiful temples and rituals.
all of which is why I found this piece of garbage objectionable:
quote:
If you believe in Heaven and Hell, it isn't just about believing in God but believing in the right one with the exact set of parameters he has set out.
This post was edited on 2/11/14 at 8:11 pm
Posted on 2/11/14 at 8:17 pm to NC_Tigah
Well said!!!
Posted on 2/11/14 at 8:33 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:04 pm to TheDoc
quote:
Right, because I wasn't a Christian for the majority of my life or anything.
Well you were obviously never a true Christian. That's probably why you don't understand the basic facts.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:10 pm to TK421
quote:
Well you were obviously never a true Christian. That's probably why you don't understand the basic facts.
Now THAT'S a no true Scotsman fallacy
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:13 pm to Roger Klarvin
That was the idea.
If you are interested, there is a subreddit I just found dedicated to Christian Universalism. It should further clarify that not all sects of Christianity believe the things you suggested.
LINK
If you are interested, there is a subreddit I just found dedicated to Christian Universalism. It should further clarify that not all sects of Christianity believe the things you suggested.
LINK
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:34 pm to TheDoc
quote:
But seriously another point just has to be addressed: if someone doesn't believe Jesus rose from the dead and died for their sins, they aren't a Christian.
That is pretty much the biggest tenet of Christianity.
Jesus saving mankind from sin by dying on the cross and rising from the dead..
You know.. The resurrection.
The foundation of the Christian faith.
Pretty much the case. Well said.
Sadly, to confuse matters, some years ago,Episcopal Bishop Spong published his belief that the resurrection must be viewed as spiritual and metaphorical. No one really knows what happened to Jesus's body except, apparently, Spong who says it was probably thrown in an open pit and dogs dragged away the bones. This from a man charged with the care of souls with no consequences or even criticism worthy of note from the denomination.
What bothers me is not that there are many like him or that most of the OT probably agree with him, it's that he claims to be something he is not and leads people that trust him in his disbelief.
My Anglican community keeps it simple I think: Worship weekly. The sacraments of Baptism and The Lord's Supper/Communion are paramount. How to live is summed up by love the Lord with all you've got and your neighbor like yourself and belief in our common statement of faith:
quote:I daresay that even the hardest shell Baptist could say that and pretty much, with some explanation of a couple of points, agree with every word.
I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholic Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:49 pm to Roger Klarvin
because this has been discussed a lot recently I feel like I need to chime in. Maybe it will be more convincing if it comes from someone who has Catholic in his screen name.
through the tradition of the Church (aka the fathers, some earlier council documents I don't remember which) this phrase has constantly been positited. "outside the Church there is no salvation"
now at first reading it would appear that you must be catholic to be saved. Protestants tear us apart on this, I'm sure even atheist criticize Catholics for this belief. I can almost guarantee that this was constantly in the ears and minds of the bishops in the 50 and 60s before the council.
The bishops knowing that many misinterpreted this passage new it had to be addressed in the Vatican Council.
So in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church the Church in Chapter II (I don't know why NCs link says chapter one) the Church deals with the people of God. they introduce this idea that we aren't individuals rather we come together as community. The idea of covenants along with other things.
than in paragraphs 14-16 the Church deals with the levels of unity with the Church. The way to understand this is like a ball of light. At the center is the light itself than it spreads to the other parts of the ball. The first inner circle directly next to the center would be the Church. the second inner circle would be Non Catholic Christians, The rest of the circles are non Christians. (I have a theory of the order but it is not relevant to the discussion.
Now without going into to much detail LG says that there are those who are baptized but not a part of the visible Church.
so even though they aren't Catholics they can still be saved are still united with Christ.
even those who don't know Christ can still have salvation.
Now I'm sure the first thought you have is. Doesn't this go against no salvation outside the Church.
No it doesn't
LG 14 says
this means that only through union with the Church who is founded by Christ and who is the body of Chirst.
remember that after this LG moves to say that non Catholics and Non Christians are still in union with the Church even though not visibly.
so going back to the ball of light analogy. Let's say a non Chrisitan is on one of the last circles in this ball of light. The light he sees from the center is the truth it is the true light, but it is very limited and he doesn't know it's fullness. Also in oder to see the light it must go through the Church. So The Church spreads the light to the world and it is only through the Church that the light can spread. Christ chose to work his salvation through the Church and to even non Catholics they can still be saved if they are in union with the Church Christ founded aka the Catholic Church.
So you don't have to believe in a set belief system to be saved.
through the tradition of the Church (aka the fathers, some earlier council documents I don't remember which) this phrase has constantly been positited. "outside the Church there is no salvation"
now at first reading it would appear that you must be catholic to be saved. Protestants tear us apart on this, I'm sure even atheist criticize Catholics for this belief. I can almost guarantee that this was constantly in the ears and minds of the bishops in the 50 and 60s before the council.
The bishops knowing that many misinterpreted this passage new it had to be addressed in the Vatican Council.
So in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church the Church in Chapter II (I don't know why NCs link says chapter one) the Church deals with the people of God. they introduce this idea that we aren't individuals rather we come together as community. The idea of covenants along with other things.
than in paragraphs 14-16 the Church deals with the levels of unity with the Church. The way to understand this is like a ball of light. At the center is the light itself than it spreads to the other parts of the ball. The first inner circle directly next to the center would be the Church. the second inner circle would be Non Catholic Christians, The rest of the circles are non Christians. (I have a theory of the order but it is not relevant to the discussion.
Now without going into to much detail LG says that there are those who are baptized but not a part of the visible Church.
quote:
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour.15* They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ
so even though they aren't Catholics they can still be saved are still united with Christ.
quote:
Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.
even those who don't know Christ can still have salvation.
Now I'm sure the first thought you have is. Doesn't this go against no salvation outside the Church.
No it doesn't
LG 14 says
quote:
Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
this means that only through union with the Church who is founded by Christ and who is the body of Chirst.
quote:
Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation.
remember that after this LG moves to say that non Catholics and Non Christians are still in union with the Church even though not visibly.
so going back to the ball of light analogy. Let's say a non Chrisitan is on one of the last circles in this ball of light. The light he sees from the center is the truth it is the true light, but it is very limited and he doesn't know it's fullness. Also in oder to see the light it must go through the Church. So The Church spreads the light to the world and it is only through the Church that the light can spread. Christ chose to work his salvation through the Church and to even non Catholics they can still be saved if they are in union with the Church Christ founded aka the Catholic Church.
So you don't have to believe in a set belief system to be saved.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:52 pm to TK421
quote:
Well you were obviously never a true Christian. That's probably why you don't understand the basic facts.
no disrespect but this is absurd
by the very basic definition of Christ fi he had a relationship with Christ he was a Christian than he fell away or didn't believe it anymore.
again no disrespect but saying that those who fall away were never true Christians is just a cop out to try and avoid explaining how someone has been "saved" at the same time continues to sin.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:54 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
no disrespect but this is absurd
I don't think you followed this thread for a couple of pages. It was obviously a joke.
Though the idea of "losing salvation" is interesting and complex.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 10:00 pm to TK421
quote:
I don't think you followed this thread for a couple of pages. It was obviously a joke.
sorry I missed that
I've had a very busy day that is why I post a couple of response disappear for three hours come back give a couple more response disappear another three hours
but my response to the idea of "losing salvation" is that you never have full salvation till you die and God saves you after your death. Life is a journey towards salvation. This is why scripture says work on your salvation with fear and trembling. We must always be diligent and prepared because we don't know the hour or the day. By working on our salvation we are always prepared for the returning of the bridegroom, so that when we here the bride groom is here go out and meet him, we don't have to get more oil for our lamps we are ready to great him.
That is the Christian journey for me it is a continual growing in relationship with Christ and coming to know him that when he comes again to bring us to our judgement we are ready to welcome him.
now I disappear for another few hours (well 9 to be exact if I post in the morning)
This post was edited on 2/11/14 at 10:01 pm
Posted on 2/11/14 at 10:34 pm to TK421
quote:
Well you were obviously never a true Christian
Of course I was
quote:
That's probably why you don't understand the basic facts.
The basic facts like Jesus dying for the sins of the world and resurrecting 3 days later?
Yes or no: is that not the major tenet of Christianity?
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