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Message
re: Arguments against gay marriage
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:03 am to Korkstand
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:03 am to Korkstand
quote:
You obviously do not understand what SFP was saying.
Religion arose from a set of moral values, not the other way around.
Whether or not we disagree with the origin of moral values, it is irrelevant to the question.
The question is if objective moral values can exist without God. The answer is that it cannot. Further this is a view point almost universally agreed upon by both theists and atheists. There really is no argument. So when SFP asserts that I am wrong in this most basic assertion it is either because he misunderstood what I was saying or he is so blindly ignorant of the argument that it would be best for him to withhold comment altogether.
Which brings us back to the point of this thread. I had said that Christians follow Gods word and will always stand up against gay marriage. This is because we believe God is the only source of objective right and wrong and he has deemed gay marriage as wrong and sinful.
However, if you do not believe in God, you are free to develop your own set of moral values. You may think it is perfectly fine to support gay marriage and killing unborn children (not a cheap shot - this is unfortunately acceptable practice in the US). Everyone, without God, can determine what is right and wrong for their own belief system. In this particular case the Godless believe gay marriage to be ok.
Consider that if a new country sprung up and decided over time it was prudent for the success of the country to kill all first born children, they would have a relative right to do so. Now you may say that is an atrocity beyond comprehension and I think you would be correct in saying that. But on what grounds could you say it? Without objective moral values in place, what is deemed right is in the eye of the beholder.
3
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:05 am to amsterdam
quote:
The question is if objective moral values can exist without God.
objective morals can only exist with god if you actually know what god wants. Let me clue you in, if god exists, you have no fricking clue what he is thinking.
all you have is man's interpretation of what they think god wants. Its still subjective.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:08 am to mouton
quote:
Do you think driving over the speed limit is a sin? Then why dont you Christian hacks protest that. You hypocrites need to stop being so selective in which so called sins you find offensive.
All sin of all kind is wrong in Gods eyes. The bible shows that he dislikes all of it equally. If you find a Christian harping on one sin over another it may be because God has charged that person to defend that part of his teaching. That being said do not for a second believe that God favors one sin over another, and neither should his followers
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:11 am to Hawkeye95
quote:
objective morals can only exist with god if you actually know what god wants. Let me clue you in, if god exists, you have no fricking clue what he is thinking.
Actually I do. Fortunately God become man in the person of Jesus Christ who laid out how God expects us to live our life. Jesus taught about love and forgiveness to be sure, but he also warned repeatedly the consequences of a sinful life.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:15 am to amsterdam
quote:
Actually I do. Fortunately God become man in the person of Jesus Christ who laid out how God expects us to live our life.
no you don't. You have man's written interpretation of what he said. Jesus didn't write the bible, his followers did.
Go tell a story to a friend, and have him write it down a few months later. then have it translated into another language, a thousand years later. See if that story matches what you told him. It won't match.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:16 am to amsterdam
quote:
Actually I do. Fortunately God become man in the person of Jesus Christ who laid out how God expects us to live our life. Jesus taught about love and forgiveness to be sure, but he also warned repeatedly the consequences of a sinful life.
You're wrong. Jesus was just another prophet. Mohammed brought us the word of God in the Koran. That is what God really thinks.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:21 am to Tigerlaff
quote:And so . . . what then does God think of gay marriage, Tigerlaff?
That is what God really thinks.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:27 am to amsterdam
quote:It is entirely relevant.
Whether or not we disagree with the origin of moral values, it is irrelevant to the question.
quote:Again, religion arose from a set of moral values. The only reason you view them as "objective" is because someone wrote them down so that you can say "look, it says it right here, nothing subjective about it".
The question is if objective moral values can exist without God. The answer is that it cannot.
quote:Link?
Further this is a view point almost universally agreed upon by both theists and atheists.
quote:
There really is no argument.
quote:I think you need to do some self-reflection and think about who is being "blindly ignorant".
So when SFP asserts that I am wrong in this most basic assertion it is either because he misunderstood what I was saying or he is so blindly ignorant of the argument that it would be best for him to withhold comment altogether.
quote:What you believe has no place in government.
This is because we believe God is the only source of objective right and wrong and he has deemed gay marriage as wrong and sinful.
quote:How many unborn children did god himself kill with the flood? shite, I'm sorry, I know I'm not supposed to question such things.
You may think it is perfectly fine to support gay marriage and killing unborn children (not a cheap shot - this is unfortunately acceptable practice in the US)
quote:It is ingrained in us as a species (and in pretty much every species) not to kill one another. People get this wrong all the time, no doubt. You may call them godless, but if you look back throughout history a whole lot of killing has taken place in the name of god. The bible has a whole lot of good things in it, for example "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". But this is not unique to christianity. Pretty much every religion ever created, and every set of laws ever written, has included some form of this very basic form of moral logic as its foundation. This is because everyone has the same very basic set of needs and desires, and morals arise naturally and logically from these. Some specific sets of morals develop into religions, and some even gain popularity. But to claim one specific set as the one and only truth is ridiculous.
Consider that if a new country sprung up and decided over time it was prudent for the success of the country to kill all first born children, they would have a relative right to do so. Now you may say that is an atrocity beyond comprehension and I think you would be correct in saying that. But on what grounds could you say it? Without objective moral values in place, what is deemed right is in the eye of the beholder.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:37 am to Korkstand
i just want to know which societies have lasted when murder (committed by the public) wasn't punished by society
i'll hang up and listen
i'll hang up and listen
Posted on 7/31/14 at 12:01 pm to Korkstand
Korkstand you are way out of your league with this argument. Better men than both of us have argued this point to death and both sides agree that without God objective moral values do not exist
How can you be so sure that these set of values weren't handed down to them by God before they were written down. We can argue this all day and again it will not be relevant to the question
No link. Google any one of your favorite atheist and look up their view point on moral values.
Lawrence Krauss, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens all agree that moral values are subjective. As I mention the only prominent atheist to say they do exist would be Sam Harris. Further if that does not suit you take a tigerdroppings poll with all your favorite atheist posters and you will be surprised at how many agree with me on this topic
I have and this is an age old "settled" debate. If you like you can use this line of reasoning which is often used when the subject is debated:
1. If objective moral values exist, then God almost certainly exits
2. If objective moral values do not exist, then God almost certainly does not exist
3. Objective moral values do/do not (pick one from the side you agree on) exist
4. Therefore God does/does not (again pick one) exist
God grants life and therefore has the power to take it. The real question is why would he? Throughout the bible God punishes wicked people. He has done it many times before and will again at the second coming of Christ. What surprises me is just how surprised atheists are to read that yes it actually does enforce his word
quote:
Again, religion arose from a set of moral values. The only reason you view them as "objective" is because someone wrote them down so that you can say "look, it says it right here, nothing subjective about it".
How can you be so sure that these set of values weren't handed down to them by God before they were written down. We can argue this all day and again it will not be relevant to the question
quote:
quote:
Further this is a view point almost universally agreed upon by both theists and atheists.
Link?
No link. Google any one of your favorite atheist and look up their view point on moral values.
Lawrence Krauss, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens all agree that moral values are subjective. As I mention the only prominent atheist to say they do exist would be Sam Harris. Further if that does not suit you take a tigerdroppings poll with all your favorite atheist posters and you will be surprised at how many agree with me on this topic
quote:
I think you need to do some self-reflection and think about who is being "blindly ignorant
I have and this is an age old "settled" debate. If you like you can use this line of reasoning which is often used when the subject is debated:
1. If objective moral values exist, then God almost certainly exits
2. If objective moral values do not exist, then God almost certainly does not exist
3. Objective moral values do/do not (pick one from the side you agree on) exist
4. Therefore God does/does not (again pick one) exist
quote:
How many unborn children did god himself kill with the flood? shite, I'm sorry, I know I'm not supposed to question such things
God grants life and therefore has the power to take it. The real question is why would he? Throughout the bible God punishes wicked people. He has done it many times before and will again at the second coming of Christ. What surprises me is just how surprised atheists are to read that yes it actually does enforce his word
Posted on 7/31/14 at 12:04 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i just want to know which societies have lasted when murder (committed by the public) wasn't punished by society
i'll hang up and listen
Are we to argue on a topic we agree upon? I think murder is wrong and so do you...Great! Unfortunately the Nazi's didn't feel this way about the Jews.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 12:38 pm to amsterdam
quote:
Korkstand you are way out of your league with this argument.
quote:My question to you is do objective moral values exist with god?
Better men than both of us have argued this point to death and both sides agree that without God objective moral values do not exist
quote:You know, I can't be 100% sure, but it is much more likely, given what we know about the world, that men agreed on and wrote down a set of morals than it is a deity handed them down. You are free to disagree with me on which is more likely, of course.
How can you be so sure that these set of values weren't handed down to them by God before they were written down. We can argue this all day and again it will not be relevant to the question
quote:
Google any one of your favorite atheist and look up their view point on moral values.
Lawrence Krauss, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens all agree that moral values are subjective. As I mention the only prominent atheist to say they do exist would be Sam Harris.
Where in the hell do you get your info from? Literally every person you mentioned here agrees with me. A select quote from Hitchens:quote:Please, link me a source where just one of these people say that objective morality is not possible without god.
I think our knowledge of right and wrong is innate in us. Religion gets its morality from humans. We know that we can't get along if we permit perjury, theft, murder, rape
quote:
Further if that does not suit you take a tigerdroppings poll with all your favorite atheist posters and you will be surprised at how many agree with me on this topic
quote:Right off the bat your logic train falls off the rails, creating a myth to explain what you don't think possible
1. If objective moral values exist, then God almost certainly exits
quote:Further off the rails, assuming that if a god does exist that he would almost definitely instill in his creation objective morality
2. If objective moral values do not exist, then God almost certainly does not exist
quote:I pick objective moral values do exist, and there is no therefore. No explanation needs to be plucked out of thin air.
3. Objective moral values do/do not (pick one from the side you agree on) exist
4. Therefore God does/does not (again pick one) exist
quote:Doesn't a mother grant life to her children? Oops, sorry again, no questioning.
God grants life and therefore has the power to take it.
quote:Ah, that is the question. Why is it do as I say, not as I do?
The real question is why would he?
quote:Yeah, he killed them and their unborn children. Talk about wicked.
Throughout the bible God punishes wicked people.
quote:You can continue to allow yourself to be brainwashed and believe that it makes sense, but don't push that shite on me and society. All of the batshit insane terroristic things that happen in the world are justified by their religious beliefs. Don't let yourself get to that point.
What surprises me is just how surprised atheists are to read that yes it actually does enforce his word
Posted on 7/31/14 at 12:43 pm to amsterdam
quote:
If you find a Christian harping on one sin over another it may be because God has charged that person to defend that part of his teaching.
So God consistently charges known and admitted serial adulterers (pick a televangelist or god-invoking politician) with being his mouthpieces of morality?
Wow... That's a harsh statement to make about God's understanding of the concept of credibility.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 12:49 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
morality is nothing more than a list of behaviors that society has deemed to be disruptive, and this occurred long before i was born
murder, stealing, incest, etc. these are all social mores and immoral, and we have data to back it up
religion just used these concepts, added in a god (and back in the date, this occurred via state control), and voila
You just pretty much inadvertently agreed with him. Morality, in you opinion is subjective (societal norms).
Those who believe in God generally will disagree.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 12:58 pm to moneyg
quote:I took it as him saying that, if morality is subjective, then so are the morals spelled out in the various religions.
You just pretty much inadvertently agreed with him. Morality, in you opinion is subjective (societal norms).
Posted on 7/31/14 at 1:00 pm to Korkstand
LINK
This is an article talking about the atheists quest for objective values.
I think you may as I have come to the point where you realize we are basically using the same argument to support our belief. The fact that all cultures have looked down on and eventually outlawed murder for instance is evidence to me that objective values exist and therefore so does God. You however can use that to support that we all innately have a set have moral standards within as hitchens asserts. Btw, I believe that quote from Hitchens come from a debate with William Lane Craig.
As an atheists you will find yourself on much more comfortable ground with a viewpoint of moral relativism.
This is an article talking about the atheists quest for objective values.
I think you may as I have come to the point where you realize we are basically using the same argument to support our belief. The fact that all cultures have looked down on and eventually outlawed murder for instance is evidence to me that objective values exist and therefore so does God. You however can use that to support that we all innately have a set have moral standards within as hitchens asserts. Btw, I believe that quote from Hitchens come from a debate with William Lane Craig.
As an atheists you will find yourself on much more comfortable ground with a viewpoint of moral relativism.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 1:07 pm to Korkstand
quote:
My question to you is do objective moral values exist with god?
I am saying that objective moral values only exists with God.
God is the source of all objective morality. Its actually laughable to try and argue that society since creation have practiced consistent moral values in line with all cultures.
A prime modern day example would be the discarding of physical and mentally handicapped children in poor countries all over the world. Often these children are looked at as a curse of sorts and left to fend for themselves or are outright killed. I think this is outrageously wrong yet within the said cultures it is perfectly acceptable
Posted on 7/31/14 at 1:10 pm to benhamin5555
quote:
Arguments against gay marriage
So far, 29 federal and state courts have ruled this year that there are no good arguments against gay marriage. The only reason these bans were put into place was out of animus towards gay people. If you don't believe that that's fine, tell that to the judges who have determined otherwise.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 1:32 pm to amsterdam
quote:And, in my opinion, a mind that is not crippled by beliefs will realize that the latter is far more likely than the former.
The fact that all cultures have looked down on and eventually outlawed murder for instance is evidence to me that objective values exist and therefore so does God. You however can use that to support that we all innately have a set have moral standards within as hitchens asserts.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 1:36 pm to amsterdam
quote:Luckily, I am not arguing that. I am arguing that, more often than not throughout history, it has been religious beliefs that have caused societies to stray from morality. You are free to disagree.
God is the source of all objective morality. Its actually laughable to try and argue that society since creation have practiced consistent moral values in line with all cultures.
quote:And belief in curses stems from, say it with me... religious beliefs.
A prime modern day example would be the discarding of physical and mentally handicapped children in poor countries all over the world. Often these children are looked at as a curse of sorts and left to fend for themselves or are outright killed. I think this is outrageously wrong yet within the said cultures it is perfectly acceptable
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