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re: The Top 15 Greatest Movie Villains of the Last 25 Years
Posted on 3/19/15 at 12:47 pm to magildachunks
Posted on 3/19/15 at 12:47 pm to magildachunks
quote:
He is not antagonistic towards Clarise.
Of course he is. He's serial killer/cannibal. She's Jane Law.
quote:
If anything, he plays the role of mentor.
As a means to get to know her and discover any weaknesses.
quote:
He guides her on her quest to slay her inner demons.
As a means to get to know her and discover any weaknesses. He also uses this to manipulate her.
quote:
She is her own main antagonist.
Well, she has an inner conflict, certainly, but only in rare cases does this rise to an actual antagonistic relationship - and even more rarely, to "main" status (something like Jekyll and Hyde or Banner and Hulk).
Lecter is the puppet master in Silence - regardless of his "face turn" in subsequent installments of various stories, he determines everything bad that happens, in opposition to the good guys.
Bill is his pawn. As is Clarisse - that is as clear as day.
This post was edited on 3/19/15 at 12:48 pm
2
Posted on 3/19/15 at 12:48 pm to Ace Midnight
He never used Clarise as a pawn.
Not once.
Not once.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:22 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Vader is the main antagonist in A New Hope, as well, although not obviously so with Tarkin "holding his leash"
I'm not familiar with this A New Hope
, but in Star Wars, Vader is defiantly the main antagonist and villain. Tarkin may out rank him in the the government the characters operate under, but in the narrative he's a supporting character. Palpatine is the antagonist villain in Jedi
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:28 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
He's scary, he's evil, but he isn't THE antagonist.
But he's still villainous. This list is called "Greatest Movie Villains" not "Greatest Movie Antagonists." When you brutally murder innocent police and medical personnel you are most definitely not one of the protagonists in the story, especially when the main protagonist is a federal agent.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:29 pm to magildachunks
quote:
He never used Clarise as a pawn.
Not once.
He used her kindness and trust to have himself moved to a less secure facility from which he could escape.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:31 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
He used her kindness and trust to have himself moved to a less secure facility from which he could escape.
She had no part in that.
He used a desperate mother and an ambitious doctor for that.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:33 pm to magildachunks
quote:
He used a desperate mother and an ambitious doctor for that.
In what world does this not make him a villain? A nice guy doesn't ask a desperate mother where they will feel a tickling sensation when their daughter is being butchered on the slab.
This post was edited on 3/19/15 at 1:34 pm
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:34 pm to RollTide1987
I said he was not antagonistic to Clarise.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:45 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
He used her kindness and trust to have himself moved to a less secure facility from which he could escape.
That's not true, he was moved by the Senator at the behest of Dr Chilton (a lesser antagonist, who we assume he eats later) who was jealous of Clarise.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:46 pm to magildachunks
quote:
I said he was not antagonistic to Clarise.
Yeah...not at all.
quote:
You know what you look like to me, with your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube. A well scrubbed, hustling rube with a little taste. Good nutrition's given you some length of bone, but you're not more than one generation from poor white trash, are you, Agent Starling? And that accent you've tried so desperately to shed: pure West Virginia. What is your father, dear? Is he a coal miner? Does he stink of the lamp? You know how quickly the boys found you... all those tedious sticky fumblings in the back seats of cars... while you could only dream of getting out... getting anywhere... getting all the way to the FBI.
He is very manipulative of her. He uses the above monologue to strip away Clarice's armor and turn her into a sad, frightened little girl. You can see it in her facial expressions. Lecter got into her head when Agent Crawford explicitly warned against this.
He used Clarice's own ambition against her to set events in motion which led to his escape. He would only answer her questions in exchange for a room with a view and also in exchange to learn something about her. He was manipulative from the very start. And while Clarice lied to Lecter about Plum Island, Lecter's offer to squeal proved enticing enough to an equally ambitious Dr. Chilton, who had him moved to that courthouse in Tennessee.
Also let's not forget that Lecter ever came out directly and said who Buffalo Bill was. From the word "go" he knew who was behind the slayings but instead chose to play mind games with Clarice and have her work it out for herself. What if she hadn't figured it out? Then the senator's daughter's death would have been just as much on Lecter's hands as it was on our main antagonist, Buffalo Bill.
How is that not manipulative?
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:53 pm to RollTide1987
Also...as someone pointed out on the previous page, it is strongly hinted at throughout the movie that Lecter created the monster that is Buffalo Bill. He was one of Lecter's patients and was put out into the world by Lecter to kill. Lecter used the crisis to secure movement to a less restrictive holding cell which allowed him to escape.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:54 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
But he's still villainous. This list is called "Greatest Movie Villains" not "Greatest Movie Antagonists." When you brutally murder innocent police and medical personnel you are most definitely not one of the protagonists in the story
you are missing the point of the debate. My contention is the villain must be an antagonist. what you are describing here is evil characters, which is fine, but being evil doesn't automatically make you a villain imo.
Who is the protagonist of the Godfather since by your definition it can not be the guy that brutally murders a cop in a restaurant? Or what about the Sopranos? Innocent people were murdered and or bullied by Tony Soprano or his associates on his behalf.
quote:
A nice guy doesn't ask a desperate mother where they will feel a tickling sensation when their daughter is being butchered on the slab.
agreed, he's evil, but that doesn't automatically make him "the villain".
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:55 pm to RollTide1987
My only thoughts on this are that Captain Vidal belongs on this list and Darth Maul doesnt.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 2:36 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Also...as someone pointed out on the previous page, it is strongly hinted at throughout the movie that Lecter created the monster that is Buffalo Bill. He was one of Lecter's patients and was put out into the world by Lecter to kill. Lecter used the crisis to secure movement to a less restrictive holding cell which allowed him to escape.
Buffalo Bill was never a patient of his.
He was the lover of Lector's patient: the head in the car.
It's never suggested they met.
ETA: and let's not forget, lector sent the FBI to the last Known address for Jame Gumb.
This post was edited on 3/19/15 at 2:39 pm
Posted on 3/19/15 at 2:42 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
You know what you look like to me, with your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube. A well scrubbed, hustling rube with a little taste. Good nutrition's given you some length of bone, but you're not more than one generation from poor white trash, are you, Agent Starling? And that accent you've tried so desperately to shed: pure West Virginia. What is your father, dear? Is he a coal miner? Does he stink of the lamp? You know how quickly the boys found you... all those tedious sticky fumblings in the back seats of cars... while you could only dream of getting out... getting anywhere... getting all the way to the FBI.
You must tear them down in order to rebuild them.
He was seeing what she was made of.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 2:53 pm to magildachunks
John Doe, "Se7en."
Posted on 3/19/15 at 3:06 pm to magildachunks
Some that I don't think have been mentioned.
Mr Blonde - Resevoir Dogs
Alonzo Harris (Denzel) - Training Day
Paul and Peter - Funny Games
Max Schreck (Dafoe) - Shadow of the Vampire
Dino Velvet - 8mm
Mitch Leary (Malkovich) - In the Line of Fire
Guilty Pleasure Villains
Cyrus 'The Virus' Grissom (Malkovich)
Mr Blonde - Resevoir Dogs
Alonzo Harris (Denzel) - Training Day
Paul and Peter - Funny Games
Max Schreck (Dafoe) - Shadow of the Vampire
Dino Velvet - 8mm
Mitch Leary (Malkovich) - In the Line of Fire
Guilty Pleasure Villains
Cyrus 'The Virus' Grissom (Malkovich)
Posted on 3/19/15 at 3:40 pm to RollTide1987
Think I'd replace 13-15 and maybe another with these:
Frank Booth - Blue Velvet
Marshal Stockburn - Pale Rider
Archibald Cunningham - Rob Roy
I'd say Gollum, but he probably isn't really a villain. Maybe Sauron??
Frank Booth - Blue Velvet
Marshal Stockburn - Pale Rider
Archibald Cunningham - Rob Roy
I'd say Gollum, but he probably isn't really a villain. Maybe Sauron??
Posted on 3/19/15 at 3:47 pm to Darkknight
Pale rider came out 30 years ago
Posted on 3/19/15 at 4:43 pm to RollTide1987
In some order I'd expect the list to include:
1 Jigsaw (Saw)
2 Cathy Bates (Misery)
3 Robert Patrick (Terminator 2)
4 Joaquin Phoenix (Gladiator)
5 Chigurh (No Country)
6 Malkovich (In the Line of Fire)
7 Kevin Spacey (Se7en)
8 Gary Oldman (The Professional)
9 James Cromwell (L.A. Confidential)
10 King Edward (Braveheart)
11 Hans Landa (Ing Basterds)
12 Joker (Dark Knight)
13 Robert Deniro (Heat)
14 Gene Hackman (Unforgiven)
15 Joe Pesci (Goodfellas)
16 Sean Penn (Carlito's Way)
17 Anjelica Huston (The Grifters)
18 Captain Vidal (Pan's Labyrinth)
19 Denzel Washington (Training Day)
20 Lotso Huggin Bear (Toy Story 3)
yeah i cheated by going five too many
1 Jigsaw (Saw)
2 Cathy Bates (Misery)
3 Robert Patrick (Terminator 2)
4 Joaquin Phoenix (Gladiator)
5 Chigurh (No Country)
6 Malkovich (In the Line of Fire)
7 Kevin Spacey (Se7en)
8 Gary Oldman (The Professional)
9 James Cromwell (L.A. Confidential)
10 King Edward (Braveheart)
11 Hans Landa (Ing Basterds)
12 Joker (Dark Knight)
13 Robert Deniro (Heat)
14 Gene Hackman (Unforgiven)
15 Joe Pesci (Goodfellas)
16 Sean Penn (Carlito's Way)
17 Anjelica Huston (The Grifters)
18 Captain Vidal (Pan's Labyrinth)
19 Denzel Washington (Training Day)
20 Lotso Huggin Bear (Toy Story 3)
yeah i cheated by going five too many
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