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Joe Louis: How I would have clobbered Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali)

Posted on 3/5/15 at 8:42 am
Posted by Bench McElroy
Member since Nov 2009
33939 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 8:42 am
quote:

Cassius Clay's got lots of ability, but he's not The Greatest. He's a guy with a million dollars worth of confidence and a dime's worth of courage. I could have whipped him. In all honesty, I feel it in my bones. Clay can be clobbered, and if you'll pardon an old-timer talking, I am cerrtain I know how.

These days, I get to the fights in most parts of the world, especially when Clay is defending my old heavyweight title. We kid around in training camps a little, and Clay makes speeches and goes into his act, telling folks how he would have fought Joe Louis. I play along. It don't harm nobody. Maybe helps with the action, puts a few dollars on the take.

Fellows come up, asking for autographs, that kind of thing, and tell me I could have licked Clay with the Empire State Building tied to my feet. I don't say anything.

But a man gets thoughts sitting there watching Clay. I see him fooling in the gym, and I seen nearly all his fights, right through from Willie Besmanoff, way back in Louisville, to Cleveland Williams in Houston. Sometimes Clay fights good and sometimes he pulls rhubarbs that should get his head knocked off if the other guy knew his trade like they made me learn mine.

Trouble with Clay, he thinks he knows it all. Fights with his mouth. He won't listen. Me, first thing I learned in the fight gane was to keep my trap shut and my ears wide open, especially when my wise old trainer, Chappie Blackburn, was telling me things for my own good.

We did all right. Seems like I won a championship, so maybe I'm entitled to speak up a word or two of truth after all these years. And the truth in my book is I'm sure I could've put Clay away, and also know how.

Clay says he's got the fastest hands and the fastes feet of any heavyweight who was ever born. That's his opinion and he's entitled to it. The kid has speed and can surely box when he has to. There's nobody around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle of the ring. With room to move, Clay's a champion, real dangerous. But he doesn't know a thing about fighting on the ropes, which is where he would be if he were in there with me. He's all confused, his feet in knots, and his body wide open to everything.



quote:

I'd see to it that Clay did not stay in ring-center. Out there, I could be the Patsy on the wrong end of the punishment. No, he'd be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him...someplace where, from all I've seen, he just does not know how to fight.

If he stayed on the ropes, he'd get hurt. Sooner or later he'd try to bounce off, and when he did he would get hurt more. That's what the fight game is all about.

I'd press him, bang him around, claw him, clobber him with all I had, cut down his speed, belt him around the ribs. I'd punish the body, where the pain comes real bad. I know; I can still feel the trip-hammers Rocky Marciano hit me with when he knocked me out when he was on his way up and I was on my way out.

Clay would have welts on his body like I did. He would ache, like I did. His mouth would shut tight against the pain, and there would be tears burning his eyes. It is not very funny being under fire from bodypunches, and it wouldn't help Clay any looking for his trainer, Angelo Dundee, to come riding into the ring with the rescue posse.

Those guys in the corner fight good during the intervals, but they can't give you any more fists or any more heart when some guy's caving your ribs in.

"Kill the body and the head will die," Chappie used to tell me. It figures.

Sooner or later, I think Clay would get the message. Get it so good that he'd stop worrying about that face of his and drop his left hand like he did against Mildenberger and George Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and then fouled them up. I would work for it, and I wouldn't reckon to miss when it arrived.

If I goofed with a world title and a million dollars or so in the pot (plus all that television money these days), then I would not have any right to be in there with a smart fighter like Cassius Clay.



quote:

In London, and in most other places I go, people always ask me how Clay would have come through against my old opponents, and we kick the thing around, arguing this way and that.

I think Jersey Joe Walcott would have outgeneraled him. Clay is faster, but old Joe had a better style and better brains. When he dropped the left it wasn't a mistake. It was to feint you on to a right hand that could bring the roof down on your head.

Billy Conn was like lightning. He learned his trade in the small clubs, from welter right through to heavyweight. He could have kept up with Clay because his legs knew where they were going. Only thing is, Clay and Conn would have been running away from each other so fast that there would have been no fight.

Clay, I think, would have hit too fast for Jim Braddock and would have had too many moves for max baer. Maxie packed a punch but never paid enough attention to learning his business the hard way: In camp and round the clubs.

Schmeling could have taken Clay with his right, same way he took me when I forgot to keep my left up after I'd jabbed with it in out first fight.

But, of all my old opponents, the one to give Clay the worst time would have been Rocky Marciano. The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bonecrushers.




LINK

So who would have won if they fought? I think pre-ban Ali would have won by UD because he was too fast for him but Louis would have gotten the better of post-ban Ali. Oh and I think Louis was on drugs when he wrote that Marciano would have given Ali a hard time. Marciano would be lucky to win three rounds against prime Ali.
Posted by UFownstSECsince1950
Member since Dec 2009
32601 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 8:50 am to
Ronda Rousey destroys Ali in a fight in under 2 minutes

Ali destroys Rousey in a punching match in under 5 minutes
Posted by Sellecks Moustache
NC
Member since Jun 2014
5994 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 8:51 am to
Doesn't matter, Marciano would've beaten both.
Posted by Commandeaux
Zachary
Member since Jul 2009
7281 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 8:51 am to
quote:

"Kill the body and the head will die," Chappie used to tell me


You sure it wasnt Gregg Williams.
Posted by Commandeaux
Zachary
Member since Jul 2009
7281 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 8:53 am to
quote:

Doesn't matter, Marciano would've beaten both.


Here they go, here they go. Everytime a black man starts talking about boxing, a white man gotta pull Rocky Marciano out their arse. That's they one, that's they one.
Posted by burdman
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2007
20685 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 8:55 am to
James "The Gentleman Masher" Corcoran would've beat them all.
Posted by Nativebullet
Natchez, MS
Member since Feb 2011
5134 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 8:57 am to
Big boxing fan and big fan of Joe. I agree with Joe.
Posted by Mr. Wayne
Member since Feb 2008
10047 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 8:58 am to
Is Joe's strategy not the same thing Foreman tried to do to Ali? That didn't work out too well if I remember correctly. Joe Louis sounds like the current NBA analyst/former players. Everyone was better in their time than the greatest today. This attitude is universal in all sports.
Posted by bamarep
Member since Nov 2013
51802 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 9:31 am to
Ali did OK on the ropes when his speed left him, just ask Foreman.

And, Ali didn't lack courage either. He fought all comers and whipped all their asses. Joe Louis was great, but so was Ali.
Posted by Arksulli
Fayetteville
Member since Aug 2014
25192 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 9:37 am to
In all honesty Joe Louis is legitimately one of the greatest heavyweights of all time, possibly the best. Think of it not as your run of the mill NBA analyst and more as... say... Larry Bird talking about how he would have exploited flaws in someone's game.

Now this was written early in Ali's career before he showed just how much punishment he could take, that would probably change how Louis thought about a potential match. That having been said, getting trapped against ropes vs Louis is an entirely different animal then Big George 1.0. Louis might not have quite had the awe inspiring power of Foreman in his prime, but his stamina and craftsmanship was much better.

If you let a Louis or, God help you, Marciano back you into the ropes and work you over nothing good will come from it.
Posted by SportsGuyNOLA
New Orleans, LA
Member since May 2014
17015 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 9:49 am to
Joe Louis in his prime > Clay/Ali

Joe Louis is the GOAT heavyweight, IMHO.
Posted by arcalades
USA
Member since Feb 2014
19276 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 10:39 am to
quote:

How I would have
Everyone has a plan...
Posted by TigerintheNO
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2004
41179 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 11:44 am to
quote:

Joe Louis is the GOAT heavyweight, IMHO


I agree with you
Posted by MSMHater
Houston
Member since Oct 2008
22774 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 11:49 am to
quote:

Here they go, here they go. Everytime a black man starts talking about boxing, a white man gotta pull Rocky Marciano out their arse. That's they one, that's they one


"He kicked Joe Louis's arse!"

...


"He did kick his arse do."
Posted by Jamohn
Das Boot
Member since Mar 2009
13544 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 12:17 pm to
quote:

Oh and I think Louis was on drugs when he wrote that Marciano would have given Ali a hard time
He absolutely was on drugs and mentally ill.

Yes, Joe sounds like those old athletes that always think the guys of their era would dominate the modern guys. Jersey Joe Walcott would beat Ali?? Max Schmeling? GTFO.

I think Joe ranks #2 or #3 all time among heavyweights, but Ali is the clear #1. Joe gave this interview before we knew that Ali had the greatest chin and heart in the history of the heavyweight division because he had never been hit at that point.

Posted by shinerfan
Duckworld(Earth-616)
Member since Sep 2009
22274 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 12:37 pm to
The older guys were so dismissive of Ali because of his mouth and his careless hand placement but Ali was playing chess in the ring. He maneuvered opponents out of their fight plan before the bell ever rang.
Posted by Poodlebrain
Way Right of Rex
Member since Jan 2004
19860 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 12:58 pm to
As much as I respect Joe Louis I disagree with his assessment. The one thing he did not know about Muhammad Ali was his ability to take a punch. Early in his career as Clay, he didn't really get hit hard, but later in his career as Muhammad Ali, he showed he could take a punch with the best. So I don't think his strategy for fighting Ali would have worked as well as he thought. Also, Ali wasn't just about hand speed. He had foot speed as well, and he did not get cornered or forced onto the ropes even though many of his opponents tried.

Assuming they fought once and Louis won using the tactics he discussed. If there had been a rematch I think Ali would have destroyed Louis since Ali was one of the most versatile and adaptive fighters of all time.
Posted by Poodlebrain
Way Right of Rex
Member since Jan 2004
19860 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 1:15 pm to
quote:

If you let a Louis or, God help you, Marciano back you into the ropes and work you over nothing good will come from it.
Ali would not have cooperated and just let himself be trapped on the ropes or in a corner. And when he was, Ali was a master of getting off the ropes when he wanted to. He could also just garb and hold to get the ref to separate the fighters as a means to get off the ropes. I just don't think any flaws Ali had with respect to being on the ropes, or in a corner, were sufficient for Louis, or Marciano, to have knocked out Ali.

Do you think Ali had the punching power to hurt Louis or Marciano? My opinion is that Ali didn't really have great knock out power when he was dancing about on his toes, but when he planted his heels he had better than average knock out power. It was his ability to transition from one to the other that made Ali unique among heavyweights. I think Ali would have beaten either Louis or Marciano in the same way that the young Roy Jones, Jr. beat his opponents. He would have just overwhelmed them with the speed and variety of his attack.
Posted by pabgolf
baton rouge
Member since Dec 2009
1901 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 1:54 pm to
Ali would pick Louis apart, end of story.
Posted by tiderider
Member since Nov 2012
7703 posts
Posted on 3/5/15 at 3:08 pm to
ali fought a lot of quality fighters in the 70s ... louis has usually been ranked 1 or 2 in heavies, so i don't know who was the better fighter or who would win ... it'd be a helluva fight ...
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