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re: Question for supporters of the death penalty
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:59 pm to baybeefeetz
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:59 pm to baybeefeetz
Oh I do NOT do that. Interview a few molestation victims and that "limit" will disappear. They might still be alive, but they will miss living.
Excellent segway....for this twisted discussion.
Excellent segway....for this twisted discussion.
1
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:02 pm to Five0
I replied to your post but wasn't respknding to you. 
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:08 pm to baybeefeetz
Not a thing. Love DISCUSSIONS like this.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:09 pm to ZZTIGERS
I've sort of grown against the government sanctioned death penalty a little. I say we just let the convicted criminals go tagged with a GPS tracker of some sort. Locations of all criminals are publicly available online, along with their list of crimes. Whatever happens to the frickers........happens. 
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:14 pm to ZZTIGERS
quote:
Would you support the death penalty for crimes like the one Bernie Madoff perpetuated for 2 decades?
Would I actively support it? No
Would I be upset or fight it if he were sentenced to death? Also no
I don't place the same value on human life that most due, so I generally become indifferent to the fates of people who cause direct intentional harm to their fellow man especially on such large and horrendous scales.
There have been 100-110 billion people to walk this earth over the last 250,000 years or so, Madoff is just one of them. And is a really shitty one.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:16 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
I don't place the same value on human life that most due
I think this is really the problem with society as a whole. Not calling you out specifically, just saying that if more people placed higher value on human life (and quality of).....there wouldn't be so many shitty human beings out there.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:19 pm to Gr8t8s
Well "it" would happen in some of the areas I deal with, with regularity.
I will fight and kill for truth over honor. Without the truth, there can be no honor. The only way I can describe this is to experience investigating a crime against a person and allowing the evidence to lead you instead of the quick response. To see the truth come from a "suspect" and to experience them transforming into the key witness. This is what is missing from so many of the headline police/public interactions of late.
I will fight and kill for truth over honor. Without the truth, there can be no honor. The only way I can describe this is to experience investigating a crime against a person and allowing the evidence to lead you instead of the quick response. To see the truth come from a "suspect" and to experience them transforming into the key witness. This is what is missing from so many of the headline police/public interactions of late.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:20 pm to Gr8t8s
Yeah, but what is the point of an artificial floor on the value of human life? Just to make society better? Maybe society would be better, if that is our goal, if we were honest in our assessment of the value of people's lives and put people in their proper place. Again, just playing devil's advocate, and only because I don't think this stuff is as black and white as people want it to be.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:23 pm to Gr8t8s
quote:
I think this is really the problem with society as a whole. Not calling you out specifically, just saying that if more people placed higher value on human life (and quality of).....there wouldn't be so many shitty human beings out there.
I share his sentiment, but also understand your position. I think it's circular. There are so many shitty people out there, and many people just become apathetic towards people because of that. And now, it's so easy to highlight shitty people....TV, Internet, social media, etc...
I don't think there's more detestable people now than throughout history, but now they're so easy to find.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:24 pm to baybeefeetz
quote:
I don't think this stuff is as black and white as people want it to be.
If all of the truth is presented it usually is cut and dry. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. I feel they are few and far between when you have TRUTH in all aspects. Another angle to consider is that Justice is not always pleasant.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:27 pm to ZZTIGERS
I say no, but if the people he bilked voted to off him, I wouldn't care.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:31 pm to Gr8t8s
quote:
I think this is really the problem with society as a whole. Not calling you out specifically, just saying that if more people placed higher value on human life (and quality of).....there wouldn't be so many shitty human beings out there.
My point is only that we are nothing more than animals. Really, really smart animals, but not inherently different in worth than anything else living on this Earth. This planet got along fine without us for billions of years and will continue to do so long after we are gone. Moreover, there are BILLIONS of us running around. What makes you, me or anyone else so special?
Think about all the billions of meaningless, unnoticed, irrelevant deaths in human history. 99.99999 percent of people who have ever lived will be lost to history when they die, many not even having an identity in life. Every day, tens of thousands die.
I just have always found the claims of human life being so valuable hollow feel good sayings meant for children but not rational conversation. Killing Bernie Madoff for robbing all those people blind just don't move the needle for me.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:33 pm to baybeefeetz
quote:
Yeah, but what is the point of an artificial floor on the value of human life?
As corny as this will sound...........if everyone simply lived and practiced the golden rule (or love thy neighbor as thee love thyself), the world would be a better place with greater quality of life. I'm not saying that we should try and artificially put a value....because it's pointless.....more or less just pointing out that if people strived to be better humans, then mankind would be better as a whole.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:35 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
My point is only that we are nothing more than animals.
We have understanding. I will default to understanding why someone should live, but I will also try to understand why an individual should die. Thinking on the subject at the individual level is the distinction between us and the animals.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:45 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
My point is only that we are nothing more than animals. Really, really smart animals, but not inherently different in worth than anything else living on this Earth. This planet got along fine without us for billions of years and will continue to do so long after we are gone. Moreover, there are BILLIONS of us running around. What makes you, me or anyone else so special?
Think about all the billions of meaningless, unnoticed, irrelevant deaths in human history. 99.99999 percent of people who have ever lived will be lost to history when they die, many not even having an identity in life. Every day, tens of thousands die.
I just have always found the claims of human life being so valuable hollow feel good sayings meant for children but not rational conversation. Killing Bernie Madoff for robbing all those people blind just don't move the needle for me.
I get your point and don't have a problem with your stance......but I would prefer it, while I'm here, for people and life not to suck so much......as I'm sure many would as well. Why not try instead of saying "frick it, I quit."
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:49 pm to ZZTIGERS
Yes
Posted on 12/20/14 at 12:00 am to baybeefeetz
quote:
I'll be Devil's advocate here. What is the logical basis for limiting the DP merely to murder?
What a silly question.
It's the state-sanctioned ending of a human life through a civil process. We don't need a justification to limit it. It should be reserved for transgressions that can only be righted by the shedding of blood. Justification is needed to expand it beyond that.
The federal government could make Madoff's victims whole by allocating a few hours worth of federal spending to make up for their pathetically naked negligence--though most of his victims aren't exactly clothed in white.
NC bringing up the Jewish angle is pretty uncomfortable, though. Not what I'd expect from him.
This post was edited on 12/20/14 at 12:04 am
Posted on 12/20/14 at 12:24 am to Navytiger74
quote:
NC bringing up the Jewish angle is pretty uncomfortable, though. Not what I'd expect from him.
Not to get sidetracked, but it's a legit point to bring up from the Affinity scam angle. He started out by getting people in his inner circle(Jewish) to jump on the Madoff money train, and that helped give his "business" legitimacy. The guy hardly had any losing months(maybe 4 total over the course of his Ponzi Scheme?), that kind if info gets around. Regardless, it doesn't make them any less victims, unless they knew...
Again, slightly off topic, but to reference back to your comment about the suicides, while he may not be directly responsible, by definition, people who did take their life was a direct result of Madoff's lies. Everyone handles situations differently, especially one as dire being directly affected by Madoff.
Posted on 12/20/14 at 12:35 am to ZZTIGERS
quote:
Not to get sidetracked, but it's a legit point to bring up from the Affinity scam angle. He started out by getting people in his inner circle(Jewish) to jump on the Madoff money train, and that helped give his "business" legitimacy. The guy hardly had any losing months(maybe 4 total over the course of his Ponzi Scheme?), that kind if info gets around. Regardless, it doesn't make them any less victims, unless they knew...
I don't see how the fact that he preyed upon affinity lessened his culpability. Many people who get fleeced (familial or personal ties, Catholics, blacks in black churches, Pentacostals, etc) had some extra-professional reason to trust. Again, I don't take most of his victims to be "babes in the woods", but it seems like a cheap shot. Newsflash. Most cons are getting over on suckers. Does the prey's lack of savvy really mitigate the con's crimes.
quote:
Again, slightly off topic, but to reference back to your comment about the suicides, while he may not be directly responsible, by definition, people who did take their life was a direct result of Madoff's lies. Everyone handles situations differently, especially one as dire being directly affected by Madoff.
Madoof is a first rate son of a bitch, but if you kill yourself over money, that's on you. I know some wealthy people, some poor folks, and lots of people in between. I'd choose any financial station in life over suicide. Not close.
This post was edited on 12/20/14 at 12:57 am
Posted on 12/20/14 at 12:49 am to Navytiger74
quote:Oh, it doesn't, I'm just talking about how the Jewish part is relevant to the story, that's all. Outside of that(affinity), their background is irrelevant.
I don't see how the fact that he preyed upon affinity lessened his culpability.
quote:Sure, but let's not lose sight that there were plenty of people, albeit ignorant, and not privy to the-"if it's too good to be true" mantra in investing that were fleeced. Those are the ones I'm focusing on. I guess, not all victims in the Madoff scandal are equal.
Again, I don't take most of his victims to be "babes in the woods"
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