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Message
re: I'm looking for 12 million fellow Americans
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:34 pm to Taxing Authority
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:34 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Not what I said AT ALL. The idea that doing something stupid is worse than doing nothing. Not that doing nothing is a great idea, but it's better than making it worse. And it's clearly better than doing MORE of what created the problem in the first place!
"We have to do something" is NOT an argument of merit.
So you agree with me??????
My premise: the GOP cannot stomach reforming immigration, i.e. the prefer to do nothing. I am not arguing the merits of doing nothing vs. doing something. That is a different conversation completely.
You seem to agree with me.
quote:
That isn't how one would go about eliminating them. You do it ONE-AT A TIME. When you catch them, you deport them. The idea that you must simultaneously catch all of them is a false premise.
so basically what we do now?
quote:
(I didn't make the other things you quoted...)
I know, CptBengal did.
1
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:36 pm to Taxing Authority
I'm sure this has already been proposed, but let's take the taxes that we collect from our new citizens and put it toward building fences and increased border security. I'll get behind that.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 1:19 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:Doesnt seem like it.
So you agree with me??????
quote:It's a silly premise. GWB and McCain proposed immigration reform back in 2006. just as now there is no appetite for amnesty by the constituency.
My premise: the GOP cannot stomach reforming immigration, i.e. the prefer to do nothing.
The only way it "pass" it by an unaccountable executive taking an action against the will of the people. That isn't how our government was designed to work.
quote:Actually, you brought it up.
I am not arguing the merits of doing nothing vs. doing something. That is a different conversation completely.
quote:ENFORCE THE F*CKING LAW. TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY and make improvements where necessary. This isn't freaking rocket surgery.
so basically what we do now?
The idea that this problem is too large for our government to handle is one hell of an admission. If the government cannot handle 12 million illegal immigrants... How in the hell are they going to handle healthcare for 300 million people?
We say "we can't keep track of 12 million immigrants" YET... We manage to keep track of 137 million taxpayers.
The very idea that government is claiming helplessness should make every single one of us question its legitimacy. This is one of few tasks clearly delimited in the Constitution. If the government cannot deliver on this simple task, it has FAILED the people.
Government is asking the citizenry to let it off the hook. We hold Les Miles more accountable that we do our president and congressmen. It's pathetic.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 1:31 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
just as now there is no appetite for amnesty by the constituency.
Right so you agree! the GOP base prefers do nothing to immigration reform.
quote:
We say "we can't keep track of 12 million immigrants" YET... We manage to keep track of 137 million taxpayers.
Its a completely different scenario, but yes, I do think finding these 12M people would be basically impossible. We do not know their names, we do not know their addresses, we do not know where they are.
quote:
Government is asking the citizenry to let it off the hook. We hold Les Miles more accountable that we do our president and congressmen. It's pathetic.
Its good to see you have more faith in our gov't, i just do not believe that they can do it.
quote:
Government is asking the citizenry to let it off the hook. We hold Les Miles more accountable that we do our president and congressmen. It's pathetic.
Les miles is not being held accountable fwiw. If he was, he would be out the door.
But I do agree, our gov't sucks. Congress sucks. President suck. They all fricking suck.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 1:32 pm
Posted on 11/21/14 at 1:38 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:Do you have a learning disabilty? There is a W-I-D-E gulf between amnesty and doing nothing.
Right so you agree! the GOP base prefers do nothing to immigration reform.
quote:
I do think finding these 12M people would be basically impossible. We do not know their names, we do not know their addresses, we do not know where they are.
How many people were expected to sign up for Obamacare? We didn't know their names either. Nor do we know the names of the people that aren't going to comply with Obamacare... yet... that's "doable" but this isn't... quote:Then you can never argue for any government program that requires data gathering on more than 12 million people.
Its good to see you have more faith in our gov't, i just do not believe that they can do it.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 1:43 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Do you have a learning disabilty? There is a W-I-D-E gulf between amnesty and doing nothing.
Well I did caveat that they would be ok with building a wall, which isn't really reform its building a wall that won't do shite.
What reforms do you think the GOP base would be ok with?
quote:
How many people were expected to sign up for Obamacare? We didn't know their names either. Nor do we know the names of the people that aren't going to comply with Obamacare... yet... that's "doable" but this isn't...
Again, a different scenario. We are going to give them something for free, they have an incentive to give us their address.
quote:
Then you can never argue for any government program that requires data gathering on more than 12 million people.
But finding the people to put in that database when they don't want to be found? Yeah, the gov't isnt going to be able to do this.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 2:00 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
we have untold millions of people here that are not documented. This causes them to regularly break the law - drive without a license, not have auto insurance, fake SSN/stolen SSN, not enroll their children in school, work without paying taxes - this pushes a burden on other citizens and encourages them to break other laws.
sounds like it starts with getting in...must be a border issue?
quote:.
Well I did caveat that they would be ok with building a wall, which isn't really reform its building a wall that won't do shite
Why exactly is building a secure border not "really reform?"
Doesn't the word reform mean to make changes in order to improve something? Or does reform to you have to come with some point-type plan that sounds great and is marketable, making people think real "reform" is happening when nothing is changing.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 2:09 pm
Posted on 11/21/14 at 2:49 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:I don't think you'll find much opposition to enforcement initiatives.
What reforms do you think the GOP base would be ok with?
I'd reckon most would probably agree that the process to come here legally is far too slow, expensive, cumbersome, and takes ENTIRELY too long. I've know several that have gone through the process. IT STINKS.
It discourages and prevents many for trying to get the citizenship they have earned and deserved.
hint: making ANOTHER program for them to sign up for isn't really a solution, it's just more red tape. But like healthcare, this isn't about citizenship, it's about getting votes.
All of the above would likely sail through congress and be far more effective at curing the problem than blanket amnesty. If.. only... This president didn't act like a petulant child...
quote:What is the incentive to pay taxes?
Again, a different scenario. We are going to give them something for free, they have an incentive to give us their address.
and we keep up with 137 million of them. When I moved, the iRS sent my forms to my new address. I didn't tell them I moved. You're right though.. There is a key difference. Most Americans want to comply with the law. Illegal Immigrants...not so much.
So if we're going to say that being law-breakers makes them harder to track--ok, but that isn't a reason to stop trying.
If a guy escapes from jail, do we say... "He's probably hiding somewhere, so let's just pardon him, so he will tell us where he is?"
quote::donno: kinda fits in with the premise of the OP. If the government can't catch all of us, and enough do it, they should stop enforcing the law, right? Just applying the logic some have put forth here.
But finding the people to put in that database when they don't want to be found? Yeah, the gov't isnt going to be able to do this.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 11/21/14 at 2:53 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
I don't think you'll find much opposition to enforcement initiatives.
that isn't reform. That is just more of the same.
quote:
All of the above would likely sail through congress and be far more effective at curing the problem than blanket amnesty. If.. only... This president didn't act like a petulant child...
the republicans (and democrats) have had multiple chances to pass immigration reform including the above. They failed to do so. The reality is its just not particularly popular topic with the GOP base, or many swing voters.
quote:
it's about getting votes.
YEP! this was entirely political. Shoring up prospects for 2016.
quote:
kinda fits in with the premise of the OP. If the government can't catch all of us, and enough do it, they should stop enforcing the law, right? Just applying the logic some have put forth here.
I suppose so, but I doubt it would work that way. I encourage you to try.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 3:18 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:Nope. We don't effectively enforce the law. Haven't for a long time. I dated someone who had illegal family here in the early 90s. They had absolutely ZERO fear of deportation then. They certainly wouldn't now.
That is just more of the same
quote:Those bills also included amnesty. That is the deal breaker, that should be what Obama uses as "compromise" material. He would, if he were a capable and honest negotiator.
the republicans (and democrats) have had multiple chances to pass immigration reform including the above. They failed to do so
Further, if you look toward administrative improvements-- THOSE are mostly implementable at the executive level. The president clearly has powers to make significant improvements to the immigration system and how it's conducted. Yet he has consistently failed to do so. There is no leadership on this issue. Just naked political fodder.
quote:But.... But... I thought it was impossible to catch that many of us that don't want to be caught?
I doubt it would work that way
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 3:20 pm
Posted on 11/21/14 at 5:04 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Nope. We don't effectively enforce the law. Haven't for a long time. I dated someone who had illegal family here in the early 90s. They had absolutely ZERO fear of deportation then. They certainly wouldn't now.
Right but actually obama has increased deportations
quote:
Those bills also included amnesty. That is the deal breaker, that should be what Obama uses as "compromise" material. He would, if he were a capable and honest negotiator.
congress can write and pass any bill they want to at any point in time. Obama can suggest legislation but its congress who writes the laws. Its on them.
quote:
But.... But... I thought it was impossible to catch that many of us that don't want to be caught?
the feds would just garnish your wages. But I say give a shot!
If they could do that for undocumented workers, it would be immensely effective. But they can't b.c they don't know who is here with work permits and who here is a citizen, who here lies and who here is without permits. You are just being stubborn.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 5:46 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:But that aside, it shows just how incongruent his position is. I suppose just like the individual mandate, ghey marriage, deficit spending, etc, he has "evolved" his stance for nakedly political reasons.
Right but actually obama has increased deportations are counted
quote:Partially true. It helps A LOT when proposed legislation starts from a reasonable position. Something this president has yet to do. (At least to my memory)
congress can write and pass any bill they want to at any point in time. Obama can suggest legislation but its congress who writes the laws. Its on them.
Do you think the President's uni-lateral action promotes congressional action, or further divides and makes it less likely?
I clearly think the latter is far more probable. So much for "changing the to tone in Washington", eh?
quote:I have never received a permit to work as an employee from the federal or local government. I'm an employer. And I've never checked for a workers "permit".
But they can't b.c they don't know who is here with work permits and who here is a citizen,
We fill out I-9's. But people falsify them all the time just as would happen with your mythical "work permits".
I get what you're trying to say. But it's a bit like saying: "we could find the tax evaders much easier, if we told them they no longer have to pay taxes, so they can file their forms honestly". Perhaps true, but... You haven't accomplished much. "Catching" them holds no consequence.
quote:No. I'm just right.
You are just being stubborn.
(I keed, I keed) This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 5:47 pm
Posted on 11/21/14 at 5:51 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
I suppose just like the individual mandate, ghey marriage, deficit spending, etc, he has "evolved" his stance for nakedly political reasons.
oh for sure. this is the thing I don't get about much of the critique of obama, him being a communist, hating the constitution, etc. he takes whatever position that is politically convenient at the time.
quote:
Do you think the President's uni-lateral action promotes congressional action, or further divides and makes it less likely?
I think its strategic play by obama for 2016. I think its going to work.
But I doubt anything was going to get done but its definitely less likely now.
I mean Congress is suing the president, so its not like the republicans are taking the high water here.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 6:08 pm to Hawkeye95
Suing for allegedly usurping congressional power. What remedy would you prefer?
Posted on 11/21/14 at 6:33 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
.... to start underpaying our taxes by 30%.
I'd try it, but the payroll department at work might not be on board with that.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 6:36 pm to Taxing Authority
I see that you are a," Dreamer" too!
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