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Message
Home audio system - paging hopeful doc
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:25 pm
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:25 pm
So, I'm my new house, I have 6 rooms I want to place only one ceiling speaker in to play music from whatever music source I have going to an amp. Help me out with this. Everything I see shows speakers in pairs but I don't want to put two in each location. Do I need a special speaker for this? What kind of amp could I use to power up to 8 speakers and how would I set it up? I don't want to spend the money on SONOS and I will be hardwiring the speakers during the construction phase. Just need to know the best way to power 6-8 single speakers. TIA
5
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:36 pm to VanRIch
You should check out Home Theatre Direct. Send them your plans and they will come up with a reasonable solution.
You can use single speakers in each location that have 4 wires run to them to carry both left and right. I have this in my office since the rooms are too small for two speakers and the one speaker with left and right sounds really nice to me.
You can use single speakers in each location that have 4 wires run to them to carry both left and right. I have this in my office since the rooms are too small for two speakers and the one speaker with left and right sounds really nice to me.
This post was edited on 11/19/14 at 10:38 pm
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:42 pm to ruzil
I used HTD in my new house. Let's just say I can wake the neighbors. Lync 12 with 28 speakers throughout the house.
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:42 pm to VanRIch
You are looking for a speaker like this. LINK
I don't have an answer for the amp.
quote:
The RC6s in-wall/in-ceiling speaker, sold individually, includes two soft dome tweeters for true stereo highs, and a 6-1/2" Dynamic Balance® woofer with dual voice coils, which generates left and right channel mids and bass for lifelike stereo imaging.
I don't have an answer for the amp.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 6:41 am to VanRIch
Yep. You can get a stereo speaker.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 11:18 am to VanRIch
I'm bad with specific speaker recs, and the home audio guru for that on this board is probably VABuckeye but there are speakers as described below- they accept L/R and output mono from stereo sources.
Disclaimer: this is stuff I read a lot about. I do not own anything even remotely similar to what I will describe. This is kind of a summary of all I have picked up on. And I do plan on eventually wiring something like this. At present, I haven't so much as physically laid eyes on any of these amps.
As far as the amp, what you want is a "multi zone amplifier" or an "audio distribution amp" (two good search terms) seeing as you want 8 rooms, you need an 8-channel/zone amp. These things aren't typically as advanced as home receivers in terms of extra features. I've never seen them with built in streaming apps or even bluetooth. Most of them only accept stereo, RCA-line level inputs. So they're pretty "dumb" in that sense. Most don't so much as have network connections (I think I've seen one or two with it, but I think it was strictly for diagnostics and not for control. I forget though). I think the go-to brand on most forums for this is Niles. Most forums tend to focus on audio quality though. Niles is kind of the accepted "if an audiophile were to do this..." product. Others are probably great. People on forums just like Niles. They're usually pretentious pricks and spend tens of thousands of dollars on their setups, too. So if you'll settle for less and read reviews on reliability, you'll probably be just as happy with a "lesser" (re: cheaper) option. In general, excluding Pyle (which may not be bad products. I just read about quality control issues with them and worry about lemons, even when buying through Amazon), you're looking at an amp that starts in about the $400 range and they go up to the upper $700s (amp only).
Now, an amp only is kind of a poor choice for a typical house where it's hidden in a media closet even when the source is remote controlled UNLESS there is a distinct source for each room. So if this is an 8x8 setup and You've got 8 bluetooth receivers to plug in and each person controls the volume on their phone, that's actually a decent place to stop. If you ever only have one source at a time, you'd be better off with a decent class D amp and a decent quality speaker selector with a protection circuit, in most cases. More than likely, though, you'll want the ability to use the "matrix" feature- 1 source--> multiple zones with second, third, etc also in multiple zones with the ability to switch zones and sources rather freely. This will be explained by a #x# demarcation in the product's description. You'll want Nx(>8) where N is the number of sources you want while >8 is the distinct output zones. Again, if you get the right setup, these things alone are "dumb" and require you to go to the amp to change sources, zones, or amp volume (somewhat alleviated by a source that allows remote control of on/off and volume). You'll probably want to install, at the very least, a volume knob or slider in each room. Again, in this case, you can't change the source or the source's zone without going to the amp. But if a source is relatively dedicated to a zone (ie- you don't mind going to the amp to change it because it doesn't change frequently), then this is an OK option. A little more expensive, many of these things offer proprietary (-looking, at least) switch panels that can go in each room that allow source switching and volume from each zone.
I'm on mobile and worried about losing this post if I click away, so I'm going to submit then edit to include an example of a solution that offers "all in one" zone with control that allows you the freedom to "bring your own speakers" to the setup.
here is an example This isn't a recommendation for you, as it wouldn't work for 8 zones without some work. Now, you could daisy chain a plain speaker selector behind one or two of the outputs to reach your 8 zones, but those usually can't be controlled remotely without line of sight. Fortunately, most of these solutions also offer outputs allowing you infinite placement of amps behind it. So if 6 wall plates are enough with a discrete amp and volume control being acceptable behind that, you can put a cheap Class T amp behind any given zones output and tie two outputs together. Maybe this is confusing, but it's an option and if you're looking into it, I'll try to help. You're probably better off going with an 8-zone amp (or two 4 or 6 zones) with proper wall plates for ease of use. When I've got time and a computer, I'll look at actual 8-zone options and try to come back with them.
ETA2: there's a guide I posted in a thread earlier that I'm looking for that describes different amp options. here it is. For the setup you're looking for, I really think a multi-channel amp with wall plates is probably best.
Disclaimer: this is stuff I read a lot about. I do not own anything even remotely similar to what I will describe. This is kind of a summary of all I have picked up on. And I do plan on eventually wiring something like this. At present, I haven't so much as physically laid eyes on any of these amps.
As far as the amp, what you want is a "multi zone amplifier" or an "audio distribution amp" (two good search terms) seeing as you want 8 rooms, you need an 8-channel/zone amp. These things aren't typically as advanced as home receivers in terms of extra features. I've never seen them with built in streaming apps or even bluetooth. Most of them only accept stereo, RCA-line level inputs. So they're pretty "dumb" in that sense. Most don't so much as have network connections (I think I've seen one or two with it, but I think it was strictly for diagnostics and not for control. I forget though). I think the go-to brand on most forums for this is Niles. Most forums tend to focus on audio quality though. Niles is kind of the accepted "if an audiophile were to do this..." product. Others are probably great. People on forums just like Niles. They're usually pretentious pricks and spend tens of thousands of dollars on their setups, too. So if you'll settle for less and read reviews on reliability, you'll probably be just as happy with a "lesser" (re: cheaper) option. In general, excluding Pyle (which may not be bad products. I just read about quality control issues with them and worry about lemons, even when buying through Amazon), you're looking at an amp that starts in about the $400 range and they go up to the upper $700s (amp only).
Now, an amp only is kind of a poor choice for a typical house where it's hidden in a media closet even when the source is remote controlled UNLESS there is a distinct source for each room. So if this is an 8x8 setup and You've got 8 bluetooth receivers to plug in and each person controls the volume on their phone, that's actually a decent place to stop. If you ever only have one source at a time, you'd be better off with a decent class D amp and a decent quality speaker selector with a protection circuit, in most cases. More than likely, though, you'll want the ability to use the "matrix" feature- 1 source--> multiple zones with second, third, etc also in multiple zones with the ability to switch zones and sources rather freely. This will be explained by a #x# demarcation in the product's description. You'll want Nx(>8) where N is the number of sources you want while >8 is the distinct output zones. Again, if you get the right setup, these things alone are "dumb" and require you to go to the amp to change sources, zones, or amp volume (somewhat alleviated by a source that allows remote control of on/off and volume). You'll probably want to install, at the very least, a volume knob or slider in each room. Again, in this case, you can't change the source or the source's zone without going to the amp. But if a source is relatively dedicated to a zone (ie- you don't mind going to the amp to change it because it doesn't change frequently), then this is an OK option. A little more expensive, many of these things offer proprietary (-looking, at least) switch panels that can go in each room that allow source switching and volume from each zone.
I'm on mobile and worried about losing this post if I click away, so I'm going to submit then edit to include an example of a solution that offers "all in one" zone with control that allows you the freedom to "bring your own speakers" to the setup.
here is an example This isn't a recommendation for you, as it wouldn't work for 8 zones without some work. Now, you could daisy chain a plain speaker selector behind one or two of the outputs to reach your 8 zones, but those usually can't be controlled remotely without line of sight. Fortunately, most of these solutions also offer outputs allowing you infinite placement of amps behind it. So if 6 wall plates are enough with a discrete amp and volume control being acceptable behind that, you can put a cheap Class T amp behind any given zones output and tie two outputs together. Maybe this is confusing, but it's an option and if you're looking into it, I'll try to help. You're probably better off going with an 8-zone amp (or two 4 or 6 zones) with proper wall plates for ease of use. When I've got time and a computer, I'll look at actual 8-zone options and try to come back with them.
ETA2: there's a guide I posted in a thread earlier that I'm looking for that describes different amp options. here it is. For the setup you're looking for, I really think a multi-channel amp with wall plates is probably best.
This post was edited on 11/20/14 at 11:44 am
Posted on 11/20/14 at 1:07 pm to VanRIch
If you want to use a real multi-channel amplifier then you are going to need to run speaker wire to a volume control and then from that location to the speaker. So, a volume control on the wall with the speaker in the ceiling. To drive stereo speakers in 6 rooms this is the preferred method if you are not using a control system that allows you two select sources, change volume, etc. A control system makes it much easier but adds a lot of cost.
SONOS is not an expensive solution. It gives you a ton of flexibility in how and where you use the system. You can have moving zones with SONOS. By the time you run the speaker wire and buy the speakers, amps, volume controls and sources you could have just done something like SONOS for less money and without cutting any holes in walls.
SONOS is not an expensive solution. It gives you a ton of flexibility in how and where you use the system. You can have moving zones with SONOS. By the time you run the speaker wire and buy the speakers, amps, volume controls and sources you could have just done something like SONOS for less money and without cutting any holes in walls.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 1:08 pm to Hopeful Doc
quote:
Hopeful Doc
You do a fine job in these threads.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 1:24 pm to VABuckeye
What if i wanted to just control the volume for all speakers in one place. I was thinking about picking up one of those gramofon's for spotify since that is primarily what we listen to music from. Hooking that up to an amp that runs 8 single zone speakers. Volume and track control via spotify from a smart phone.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 1:29 pm to VanRIch
SONOS describes exactly what I want, but at $200 a speaker for the lowest one...that's $1600 just in speakers. I can't imagine I'd spend that much on a wired system.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 2:05 pm to VABuckeye
quote:
You do a fine job in these threads.
I try not to claim to know more than I do. Feel free to point out anything that's blatantly wrong or that you so much as disagree with. I won't be offended.
OP, as you describe what you want I am thinking a few other ways of doing it, do you want single-source or multi-source for distribution? Single source for distribution can come from a basic amp with a bluetooth receiver dongle plugged in for relatively cheap. If you see the last link in my first post, the more speakers that are on, the less power per speaker is given. you also run the risk of turning off the protection circuit and damaging your electronics on either end (most likely amp, and possibly ending in fire). I suggested the multi channel amp at first because of the room controls and multiple sources. If these aren't advantageous, there are much better options for less money.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 2:15 pm to Hopeful Doc
single source is all that's needed, i don't need the ability to have customization in each room, whatever is playing at whatever volume on the back patio can be the same for the kitchen, master bath, laundry, etc
I'm pretty sure I know what I want the source to be, just need the link between it and a single speaker in each location (maybe two speakers on the back patio)
I'm pretty sure I know what I want the source to be, just need the link between it and a single speaker in each location (maybe two speakers on the back patio)
Posted on 11/20/14 at 2:45 pm to VanRIch
quote:
What if i wanted to just control the volume for all speakers in one place. I was thinking about picking up one of those gramofon's for spotify since that is primarily what we listen to music from. Hooking that up to an amp that runs 8 single zone speakers. Volume and track control via spotify from a smart phone.
Where's the volume control behind the amp? Unless you buy an amp that you can control with a smartphone and thus control the volume. The Gramofon isn't an amp. It's a music player. The amp is behind the player in the music chain.
It's more complicated than you think it is.
This post was edited on 11/20/14 at 2:47 pm
Posted on 11/20/14 at 2:47 pm to VanRIch
Well, for single source distribution, you're probably fine with:
Source (which you know what it is) into
Amp- variable. Given the next step, I would go with something that's at least decent powered instead of something like the zone 2 on a standard receiver. Maybe something like Dayton Audio's APA-150. Something about your setup makes me think you likely have both a media closet and are planning an actual room with a decent sound system. This would either take stereo input from whatever that source is, output your source to that system, so you could have your 5.1 living room system (if it exists) at least echoing the stereo version of the whole-home source at the same time. And if neither of those are needed, it doesn't require it. There's no remote volume control of the amp. It would be controlled by your app or source. So make sure that is the case.
a simple distribution selector switch
No volume knobs (they do make similar items with them). You can add volume knobs/sliders downstream or upgrade to a selector with them (but they're much more expensive...50-100% more last time I looked at them but based on your insistence that you don't need them, I included a distributor without them). This would distribute the same thing each place just fine, and you would buy speakers accordingly- speakers with l/r input for the house and then two "standard" speakers outside. Just run the wires accordingly.
Again, downsides are that you've got to go to the source to change the zones. With a volume knob at each zone, you could leave them all on from the selector and turn each zone up as needed. Or you could do the not recommended thing, because you'll probably eventually regret it, and go straight from the selector without volume to the speakers. Since your outside speakers will be different than your house speakers, you're probably going to get different/unequal levels of sound that you won't be able to fix.
There are usually poor reviews on non-niles audio selector (no amp) switches with volume controls relative to similar model with no volume control. Will link one in a second. Still on mobile.
ETA- there's not an 8-speaker selector with volume. You'd either need to go 8 with individual room-based volume (or, I mean, you could mount all 8 zones' volume controls at the source if you need central control. I just can't imagine that scenario if it's not a commercial installation). And, based on this setup, you really can't use a pair of downstream selectors from one source and one amp. You could split one source into two amps and two four-channel selectors (or a 6 and a 2 or 4), but then you're buying a second amp and it's just a complicated situation. VABuckeye is right. There's a lot that goes into these sorts of things that you don't think about, so make sure you double check (as I alluded) that you have source control volume should you decide you don't think downstream volume control is necessary (again- ill advised given that you want mono sound throughout with stereo in one zone. I don't know enough to say with authority, but I'm fairly certain cable runs won't change the volume noticeably, so you'll get consistent volume from zone to zone that way. But based on changing one zone to a pair of l/r speakers, I think it's a bad idea. Personally, even if I'm right about the length of the run not changing the volume (which could be circumvented by running the same length of cable to the closest speaker as the farthest speaker, which I also wouldn't) I wouldn't want even the mono zones to not have volume controls. One quick reason why not: all zones are on, you get a phone call. You would have to walk through probably most other zones and to the selector itself or outside (but not to where you're blaring music outside either).
Source (which you know what it is) into
Amp- variable. Given the next step, I would go with something that's at least decent powered instead of something like the zone 2 on a standard receiver. Maybe something like Dayton Audio's APA-150. Something about your setup makes me think you likely have both a media closet and are planning an actual room with a decent sound system. This would either take stereo input from whatever that source is, output your source to that system, so you could have your 5.1 living room system (if it exists) at least echoing the stereo version of the whole-home source at the same time. And if neither of those are needed, it doesn't require it. There's no remote volume control of the amp. It would be controlled by your app or source. So make sure that is the case.
a simple distribution selector switch
No volume knobs (they do make similar items with them). You can add volume knobs/sliders downstream or upgrade to a selector with them (but they're much more expensive...50-100% more last time I looked at them but based on your insistence that you don't need them, I included a distributor without them). This would distribute the same thing each place just fine, and you would buy speakers accordingly- speakers with l/r input for the house and then two "standard" speakers outside. Just run the wires accordingly.
Again, downsides are that you've got to go to the source to change the zones. With a volume knob at each zone, you could leave them all on from the selector and turn each zone up as needed. Or you could do the not recommended thing, because you'll probably eventually regret it, and go straight from the selector without volume to the speakers. Since your outside speakers will be different than your house speakers, you're probably going to get different/unequal levels of sound that you won't be able to fix.
There are usually poor reviews on non-niles audio selector (no amp) switches with volume controls relative to similar model with no volume control. Will link one in a second. Still on mobile.
ETA- there's not an 8-speaker selector with volume. You'd either need to go 8 with individual room-based volume (or, I mean, you could mount all 8 zones' volume controls at the source if you need central control. I just can't imagine that scenario if it's not a commercial installation). And, based on this setup, you really can't use a pair of downstream selectors from one source and one amp. You could split one source into two amps and two four-channel selectors (or a 6 and a 2 or 4), but then you're buying a second amp and it's just a complicated situation. VABuckeye is right. There's a lot that goes into these sorts of things that you don't think about, so make sure you double check (as I alluded) that you have source control volume should you decide you don't think downstream volume control is necessary (again- ill advised given that you want mono sound throughout with stereo in one zone. I don't know enough to say with authority, but I'm fairly certain cable runs won't change the volume noticeably, so you'll get consistent volume from zone to zone that way. But based on changing one zone to a pair of l/r speakers, I think it's a bad idea. Personally, even if I'm right about the length of the run not changing the volume (which could be circumvented by running the same length of cable to the closest speaker as the farthest speaker, which I also wouldn't) I wouldn't want even the mono zones to not have volume controls. One quick reason why not: all zones are on, you get a phone call. You would have to walk through probably most other zones and to the selector itself or outside (but not to where you're blaring music outside either).
This post was edited on 11/20/14 at 3:29 pm
Posted on 11/20/14 at 3:24 pm to VABuckeye
Oh I can assure you, I'm aware how complicated it is. 
I have no idea what I'm doing and really do appreciate the help.
I have no idea what I'm doing and really do appreciate the help.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 4:53 pm to VanRIch
No worries. Do you have a total budget in mind? I'm traveling to Columbus for the game this weekend but I throw some suggestions together for you.
Do you have a media center or closet?
Do you have a media center or closet?
Posted on 11/20/14 at 5:12 pm to VABuckeye
I'd love to be around $5-600. Yes I will have a media closet.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 7:52 pm to VanRIch
Does that include speakers and is there wire to the speaker locations?
Gonna be impossible to get quality sound on that budget if the above answers are yes and no.
Gonna be impossible to get quality sound on that budget if the above answers are yes and no.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 8:04 pm to VABuckeye
Yes and yes would be the answers. I'm thinking of just tabling this whole project. No nearly as cut and dry as I thought it would be. Maybe just run the speaker wire for future.
Posted on 11/20/14 at 8:04 pm to VABuckeye
So you just want a speaker in each room all playing the same thing and same volume?
Replied to wrong person
Replied to wrong person
This post was edited on 11/20/14 at 8:05 pm
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