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MH17 & Putin - What If?
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:09 am
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:09 am
What would be the US response to Putin if the claims responsibility, even tacitly, for shooting down this plane?
It is becoming pretty certain that separatists that are being guided by the Russian military shot the plane down.
With that being the case, what can Obama and the US do?
Moreover, do the sanctions that we always hear about actually have any affect whatsoever against Russia?
**Note: I am not suggesting that we engage Russia in any way...to the contrary, it seems that Putin can do basically whatever he wants because he knows we are not going to take any meaningful action.
It is becoming pretty certain that separatists that are being guided by the Russian military shot the plane down.
With that being the case, what can Obama and the US do?
Moreover, do the sanctions that we always hear about actually have any affect whatsoever against Russia?
**Note: I am not suggesting that we engage Russia in any way...to the contrary, it seems that Putin can do basically whatever he wants because he knows we are not going to take any meaningful action.
9
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:11 am to DeltaDoc
How is it pretty certain at this point? No detailed investigation hasbeen completed. Is it because McCain said so?
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:11 am to DeltaDoc
quote:
What would be the US response to Putin if the claims responsibility, even tacitly, for shooting down this plane?
Obama will piss his pants. Michelle will come up with some stupid idea about talking shopping carts, then ValJer will write down what the puppet is supposed to read.
Then they will trot him out in fresh pants to read what ValJer wrote. Something about a red line, a joke or two, no questions.
Then he will return to the golf course and nothing will happen.
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:12 am to DeltaDoc
quote:
With that being the case, what can Obama and the US do?
Moreover, do the sanctions that we always hear about actually have any affect whatsoever against Russia?
Directly, I think there is little that can be done at the second.
Indirectly, a sane Europe and US would start placing military assets in countries like Poland which have been subject to Russian aggression in order to protect them.
After this incident, do you really think Russia wants to discuss that plane crash in Smolensk, Russia, that took out a huge chunk of the Polish leadership? No, they don't, and that's a good reason to start extending missile defense to Poland as well as other defensive assets.
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:13 am to El Magnifico
quote:
How is it pretty certain at this point? No detailed investigation hasbeen completed. Is it because McCain said so?
Well, let's see...Ukraine did not shoot it down. It would make no sense for the actual Russian military to shoot it down. The separatist shot down an Ukrainian military plane recently....and there is communication that is being circulated which appears to communicate that the separatist spoke with Russian officials and confirmed shooting down a commercial plane.
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:15 am to El Magnifico
quote:
How is it pretty certain at this point? No detailed investigation hasbeen completed. Is it because McCain said so?
Because Putin knows. If it was Ukrainian he would be slamming the reckless act, instead he's coming out like a moderator
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:18 am to USMCTiger03
quote:
Because Putin knows. If it was Ukrainian he would be slamming the reckless act, instead he's coming out like a moderator
Bingo.
If Putin thought Ukraine did it, he'd be going on and on about what kind of butchers they have in Kiev and how that supports his glorious campaign to free the Russians in the Crimea from them.
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:21 am to El Magnifico
quote:Not sure what McCain has said but the US Ambassador to the UN just said as much. Pretty bold statement if not true or not certain.
How is it pretty certain at this point? No detailed investigation hasbeen completed. Is it because McCain said so?
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:22 am to DeltaDoc
How do you know Ukraine did not shoot it down? They've been bombing the shite out of their own civilians in the southeast.
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:23 am to DeltaDoc
This post was edited on 7/18/14 at 10:23 am
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:25 am to El Magnifico
He will receive a sternly worded hashtag
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:26 am to El Magnifico
If you listen to the BBC, the Russians are saying it might have been Ukraine. I have know idea what really happened but until there is a thorough investigation no one does. Especially with the propaganda being spewed on both sides
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:31 am to DeltaDoc
quote:It would be an amazing act of attrition for a world leader to take responsibility. We still haven't apologized for shooting down the Iranian passenger plane in the late 80's.
What would be the US response to Putin if the claims responsibility, even tacitly, for shooting down this plane?
quote:Why would we do anything? If Putin took responsibility, I am guessing he would have Russia make a settlement with the families of the passengers and make some statement of changes to prevent the same from occurring in the future.
With that being the case, what can Obama and the US do?
Moreover, do the sanctions that we always hear about actually have any affect whatsoever against Russia?
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:32 am to El Magnifico
quote:
How do you know Ukraine did not shoot it down? They've been bombing the shite out of their own civilians in the southeast.
Hard to believe that the Ukrainian military would enter rebel-held territory, pop off an SA-11/17 at an aircraft, and move back out.
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:33 am to DeltaDoc
We will create a hashtag and witty phrase and it will trend on twitter for 2 days then Russia will surrender
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:34 am to El Magnifico
quote:
How do you know Ukraine did not shoot it down? They've been bombing the shite out of their own civilians in the southeast.
Bombs =/= SAMs
Moreover, the evidence we have right now overwhelmingly suggests resistance fighters using SAMs did this.
Furthermore, the OP is asking a hypothetical question about what a proper response should be IF Russia is linked to this.
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:35 am to CptBengal
quote:
Obama will piss his pants. Michelle will come up with some stupid idea about talking shopping carts, then ValJer will write down what the puppet is supposed to read. Then they will trot him out in fresh pants to read what ValJer wrote. Something about a red line, a joke or two, no questions. Then he will return to the golf course and nothing will happen.
....pretty much sums it up. Empirical evidence is a bitch!!
Posted on 7/18/14 at 10:43 am to mmcgrath
quote:
It would be an amazing act of attrition for a world leader to take responsibility. We still haven't apologized for shooting down the Iranian passenger plane in the late 80's
We haven't apologized but we did pay Iran over $130 million in compensation.
I doubt that much will happen no matter what comes to light. Remember that 30 years ago, KAL 007 was shot down with 62 Americans onboard, including an active US Congressman. Former President Richard Nixon was originally scheduled to be on the flight but chose not to go.
Posted on 7/18/14 at 12:08 pm to DeltaDoc
There’s no way Obama even does anything close to this, but I would demand the following of Putin:
1. Putin must come clean immediately about the incident.
2. US investigators must have full access to the MH17 crash site and all debris/wreckage.
3. Russia must pay the following in reparations:
a. $20MM to the families of ever passenger and crewmember on the flight
b. $2 Billion to Malaysian Airlines
c. $5 Billion to the Malaysian Government
NOTE: In addition to these reparations, Russia must pay all expenses related to the care of the remains of all who perished
4. Ukrainian Policy
a. The “Separatists” must be disarmed immediately. Russia must confiscate all weapons and assets they’ve supplied to the Eastern Ukraine insurgents.
b. All Russian military and intelligence personnel must withdraw from Eastern Ukraine
If Putin does not agree to ALL the above terms, the US and NATO would do the following:
A. Full economic sanctions against all sectors of the Russian economy
B. An offer for Ukraine to join NATO
C. Delivery of weapons and other “lethal aid” to the Ukrainians
D. Send Military Advisors and/or Special Operations forces to the Ukraine to help train their forces and provide intelligence
E. Forward-deploy ground forces into Eastern Europe (I think the Poles and Czechs would welcome this). Also, re-establish the missile defense sites in Eastern Europe (time to burn that "reset" button).
I'm sure the resident Ron Paul fans will call me an evil warmonger, but the US and NATO must respond as strongly as possible to Putin. We should also heed the advice of Rahm Emanuel and "never let a crisis go to waste". In this case, let's take the opportunity to neuter Vladimir Putin on the world stage and reassert our influence and moral authority in Europe.
1. Putin must come clean immediately about the incident.
2. US investigators must have full access to the MH17 crash site and all debris/wreckage.
3. Russia must pay the following in reparations:
a. $20MM to the families of ever passenger and crewmember on the flight
b. $2 Billion to Malaysian Airlines
c. $5 Billion to the Malaysian Government
NOTE: In addition to these reparations, Russia must pay all expenses related to the care of the remains of all who perished
4. Ukrainian Policy
a. The “Separatists” must be disarmed immediately. Russia must confiscate all weapons and assets they’ve supplied to the Eastern Ukraine insurgents.
b. All Russian military and intelligence personnel must withdraw from Eastern Ukraine
If Putin does not agree to ALL the above terms, the US and NATO would do the following:
A. Full economic sanctions against all sectors of the Russian economy
B. An offer for Ukraine to join NATO
C. Delivery of weapons and other “lethal aid” to the Ukrainians
D. Send Military Advisors and/or Special Operations forces to the Ukraine to help train their forces and provide intelligence
E. Forward-deploy ground forces into Eastern Europe (I think the Poles and Czechs would welcome this). Also, re-establish the missile defense sites in Eastern Europe (time to burn that "reset" button).
I'm sure the resident Ron Paul fans will call me an evil warmonger, but the US and NATO must respond as strongly as possible to Putin. We should also heed the advice of Rahm Emanuel and "never let a crisis go to waste". In this case, let's take the opportunity to neuter Vladimir Putin on the world stage and reassert our influence and moral authority in Europe.
Posted on 7/18/14 at 1:17 pm to NWHoustonTiger
quote:
If Putin does not agree to ALL the above terms, the US and NATO would do the following:
A. Full economic sanctions against all sectors of the Russian economy
B. An offer for Ukraine to join NATO
C. Delivery of weapons and other “lethal aid” to the Ukrainians
D. Send Military Advisors and/or Special Operations forces to the Ukraine to help train their forces and provide intelligence
E. Forward-deploy ground forces into Eastern Europe (I think the Poles and Czechs would welcome this). Also, re-establish the missile defense sites in Eastern Europe (time to burn that "reset" button).
This is an overreaction that would de-stabilize Eastern Europe and cause the Russians to righfully freak the f*ck out. Russians are generally distrustful and terrified of foreigners in their backyard, and this provocation would not end well.
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