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Started By
Message
I'm Proud to be an American, Where At Least I Know I'm Free?
Posted on 4/11/14 at 11:41 pm
Posted on 4/11/14 at 11:41 pm
Anyone feel a tightness in your gut when you hear those words now? Like it is not true anymore - or perhaps less true than it was?
Maybe it is just heartburn.
Was watching Captain America last week and I remember feeling like I was watching something subversive and worrying a bit about the filmmakers and wondering how they could get away with the veiled criticism of the surveillance state that is growing. It was not a conscious thought - just an unease and a question emerging. Can we do this? Can we say this without retribution?
I am not actively trying to think these things. They just come up now. Anyone else feeling this way or is it just me?
Maybe it is just heartburn.
Was watching Captain America last week and I remember feeling like I was watching something subversive and worrying a bit about the filmmakers and wondering how they could get away with the veiled criticism of the surveillance state that is growing. It was not a conscious thought - just an unease and a question emerging. Can we do this? Can we say this without retribution?
I am not actively trying to think these things. They just come up now. Anyone else feeling this way or is it just me?
14
Posted on 4/11/14 at 11:45 pm to AlaTiger
About Capt. America; the latest headline was that it was about Obammy's kill list. Did you pick that up in the plot?
Posted on 4/11/14 at 11:49 pm to Tigressa del Norte
Yeah. It was commentary on the Drone warfare. It was pretty directly a shot at this administration, I thought. Lots of political undertones.
I used to think that stuff like that was part of what made America great. Now, I worry about what is going to happen to whoever says something.
I used to think that stuff like that was part of what made America great. Now, I worry about what is going to happen to whoever says something.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 11:50 pm to AlaTiger
Meh. "Free" is hard to define. Funny that the government is getting so overbearing that more people are beginning to think this way. Maybe people will eventually realize they don't need an overbearing nanny state.
Probably not going to happen any time soon, though.
Probably not going to happen any time soon, though.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 11:51 pm to AlaTiger
I fricking hate that song.
((okay it might of had something to do with the fact that my company commander in boot camp played it 24/7 for 8 weeks :P))
((okay it might of had something to do with the fact that my company commander in boot camp played it 24/7 for 8 weeks :P))
Posted on 4/11/14 at 11:53 pm to AlaTiger
quote:
Yeah. It was commentary on the Drone warfare. It was pretty directly a shot at this administration, I thought. Lots of political undertones.
It was a direct shot at it. And I loved it for that.
Obama's drone war is as bad as Bush's Iraq war.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 11:54 pm to Gmorgan4982
No, I'm afraid we're stuck with the nanny state.
Bush's Iraq war is yet to be decided.
Bush's Iraq war is yet to be decided.
This post was edited on 4/11/14 at 11:56 pm
Posted on 4/12/14 at 12:02 am to Tigressa del Norte
Bush put things into motion, to be sure. But, this administration has taken it much farther than Bush ever did because there is more technology now.
I am not saying that Bush would not have done the same thing, but he didn't because he couldn't. This president owns what is happening. It is on him.
I am not saying that Bush would not have done the same thing, but he didn't because he couldn't. This president owns what is happening. It is on him.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 12:04 am to Tigressa del Norte
quote:
No, I'm afraid we're stuck with the nanny state.
At least in the sense that it will not be curtailed by our government. Its longevity, and sustainability, are very suspect in my opinion.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 12:12 am to asurob1
I would argue its worse from a precedent stand point. Iraq sucked but shitty wars we don't belong in is nothing new
Posted on 4/12/14 at 12:16 am to HempHead
Limited longevity, we can only hope. The alternative is not sustainable.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 6:30 am to AlaTiger
The "ideal" America never really existed. There has always been injustice, corrupt politicians, greedy, evil people with money, rigged systems, cronyism, nepotism, etc.
However, the "idea" of America - or what that ideal America represented was powerful - it was palpable - visceral. It has been in my lifetime - most recently in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.
But, the forces on the other side never sleep, never rest - using any perceived flaw in America as an excuse to reject the idea and make "fundamental changes in it" - in some cases, refinement was needed, but now we seem to be careening away from what America was at great speed and with great abandon. The idea of a self-reliant, free person working towards his/her own ends, and receiving the fruits of his/her labor seems to have been replaced by a rapidly growing welfare state. The other side of this is that government has an unquenchable thirst for power and information. The histories of the FBI, CIA and NSA all demonstrate that. The price of all that power and information is the individual right to privacy - not that technology didn't kick it in the head, but U.S. government policies have put 2 in the chest and 1 in the head of any perceived right to privacy.
I don't know what we could have done differently - and we're at critical mass now - almost at the point of no return - I think 2016 will be the moment, where we (and I think it will be a temporary thing) choose to try "America" one more time, or become West Western Europe once and for all.
However, the "idea" of America - or what that ideal America represented was powerful - it was palpable - visceral. It has been in my lifetime - most recently in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.
But, the forces on the other side never sleep, never rest - using any perceived flaw in America as an excuse to reject the idea and make "fundamental changes in it" - in some cases, refinement was needed, but now we seem to be careening away from what America was at great speed and with great abandon. The idea of a self-reliant, free person working towards his/her own ends, and receiving the fruits of his/her labor seems to have been replaced by a rapidly growing welfare state. The other side of this is that government has an unquenchable thirst for power and information. The histories of the FBI, CIA and NSA all demonstrate that. The price of all that power and information is the individual right to privacy - not that technology didn't kick it in the head, but U.S. government policies have put 2 in the chest and 1 in the head of any perceived right to privacy.
I don't know what we could have done differently - and we're at critical mass now - almost at the point of no return - I think 2016 will be the moment, where we (and I think it will be a temporary thing) choose to try "America" one more time, or become West Western Europe once and for all.
This post was edited on 4/12/14 at 6:33 am
Posted on 4/12/14 at 7:07 am to AlaTiger
quote:
Anyone feel a tightness in your gut when you hear those words now? Like it is not true anymore - or perhaps less true than it was?
Yes, absolutely. Between the drug wars, 9/11, and the welfare state, the core values have been completely abandoned. While we never were the ideal free state, we at least almost universally held some beliefs as absolute truths. Sure, there have always been exceptions, but we generally at least tried to maintain the highest level of liberty possible in dealing with domestic or international issues. The difference today is that we are willing to ditch our core values at the 1st sign of trouble.
Drug or terrorism problem? Abandon need for search warrants. Some people don't have as high a standard of living as they would like or we want a new shopping mall or to save a turtle? Abandon rights to private property. Drunk driving an issue? Clearly unconstitutional no refusal checkpoints set up to tie you down and draw blood.
Cops running around with AR15s in camo with military gear serving warrants on non-violent suspects is something I never thought I would see here. When the EPA, DEA, BLM, and over 70 other federal agencies have SWAT teams or armed personnel, we've got a serious problem.
Soviet Russia, Communist China, and Nazi Germany had nothing on us with regards to totalitarian state power.
It seems that America has always needed a boogie man to mobilize against. Since the fall of communism, it seems we have looked inward and now see our own citizens as the enemy.
What happens next? I'd guess we continue down this path. Most people are willing to sell their liberty for perceived financial, domestic, and national security. I don't hear any national politicians talking about these issues. Sure, Rand Paul is out there, but he is mostly viewed as a wacko by the national press and therefore most voters. Republicans race with Democrats to find government solutions to every little inconvenience of daily life and you can be sure that every government solutions is paid for with some loss of liberty and freedom.
Sorry, but I think the die is cast at this point.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 8:51 am to asurob1
quote:
((okay it might of had something to do with the fact that my company commander in boot camp played it 24/7 for 8 weeks :P))
That's sadistic torture. You should have asked to see the Battalion Commander about this sadistic torture.
That song is the worst patriotic song I've ever heard.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 8:56 am to Champagne
quote:
That song is the worst patriotic song I've ever heard.
And, apparently from everything I've ever heard, Lee Greenwood is an absolute raging dick.
The story of rob's torture may be the first redeeming thing I've ever associated with the god awful song.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 9:07 am to AlaTiger
quote:
Anyone feel a tightness in your gut when you hear those words now? Like it is not true anymore - or perhaps less true than it was?
Compared to what?
In certain aspects, we're the freest we've ever been. Hell, 50 years ago, states were prohibiting condoms and interracial marriage. 30 years ago, sodomy was illegal on most places. 5 years ago, DC and Illinois banned the ownership of handguns.
None of this nonsense is tolerated today.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 9:39 am to Ole War Skule
quote:
Sorry, but I think the die is cast at this point
Negative Ghostrider. Never lose faith in the American people. Just keep plowing ahead and wait for the moment when something "clicks."
The US is like a drug addict now, but even druggies can be redeemed. If you've ever had to deal with addicts or alcoholics, you know there isn't a damn thing you can do to make themselves straighten themselves out. It has to come from within. I keep faith that when our collective asses hit rock bottom, we'll sort it all out.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 9:58 am to son of arlo
quote:
The US is like a drug addict now, but even druggies can be redeemed
I'm with you but tough love must precede any redemption.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:13 am to Erin Go Bragh
quote:
I'm with you but tough love must precede any redemption.
I dealt out tough love like an Alabama coal truck dumping a 40 ton load, but that didn't fix the problem. It was something beyond him and me that got it worked out.
He's a productive member of society now bitching about how much tax he pays.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:56 am to Gmorgan4982
quote:
Maybe people will eventually realize they don't need an overbearing nanny state.
I grew up in the 50s. Imagine a scale measuring individual liberty vis-a-vis govt control over the individual with '1' being in favor of the individual and 10 being all control in the hands of govt.
If you want to describe 2014 as a '5' then 1955 was a '2'. We've moved that far along the line and it isn't going to stop moving in that direction.
Just a fraction of the differences:
You could buy cigarettes out of a vending machine.
No seat belt laws.
No motorcycle helmet laws.
No welfare or medicaid.
No forced busing to schools 20 miles away.
The Dem party was extreme right wing compared to today.
The Supreme Court was dominated by strict constructionists.
The EPA and Dept. of Education did not exist.
The Govt did not confiscate privately owned cattle.
I could go on.
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