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What's so bad about letting Ukraine split in 2?

Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:12 pm
Posted by PenguinNinja
Antarctica (and Japan)
Member since Sep 2011
2082 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:12 pm
Could hold a referendum with international oversight by area an let each region/county/whatever vote to either go be part of Russia or stay with Ukraine an be part of EU?

Specifically, what's wrong with this scenario as an alternative to armed conflict, from the perspectives of Russia an the West (EU, NATO, US)?
This post was edited on 3/2/14 at 5:14 pm
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:16 pm to
I have no idea. I know next to nothing about the area or the politics there. LSURUSSIAN has a load of practical experience, speaks the languages, and could probably write a poliboard book on the matter. I hope he weighs in on your thread.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:16 pm to
quote:

What's so bad about letting Ukraine split in 2?
Could hold a referendum with international oversight by area an let each region/county/whatever vote to either go be part of Russia or stay with Ukraine an be part of EU?
This AIN'T St George.....

The vast majority of manufacturing industry is in the eastern and southern part of Ukraine. The rest of Ukraine is heavily agrarian. That means the major tax base is in the ethnic Russian sector of the country.
Posted by Patrick_Bateman
Member since Jan 2012
17823 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:16 pm to
And
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:17 pm to
quote:

LSURussian


My man! Thanks for showing up!
Posted by Patrick_Bateman
Member since Jan 2012
17823 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:19 pm to
quote:

The vast majority of manufacturing industry is in the eastern and southern part of Ukraine. The rest of Ukraine is heavily agrarian. That means the major tax base is in the ethnic Russian sector of the country.
So? [Not a flame.] Are you saying the non-ethnic Russian sector of the country couldn't be self-sufficient? Honest question.
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:21 pm to
quote:

So? [Not a flame.] Are you saying the non-ethnic Russian sector of the country couldn't be self-sufficient? Honest question.



I think he might be implying that it would be a delay of the inevitable. Its gonna be hard to separate one sector from the other without having a constant civil and cultural struggle between the two countries.
Posted by Ralph_Wiggum
Sugarland
Member since Jul 2005
10667 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:27 pm to
Nothing really. A good solution would be to give the Crimea back to Russia plus a pro-Russia government in Kiev. Obama ought to tell Putin that we would be cool with that.

Russia gets its interest protected and we have a Ukraine that maintains enough independence.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:31 pm to
quote:

Are you saying the non-ethnic Russian sector of the country couldn't be self-sufficient? Honest question.

I don't know. Honest answer.

I know when I worked in Ukraine and I mentioned the possibility of "two" Ukraines as described in the OP, the ethnic Ukrainians would mention the lack of tax base in the larger, ethnic Ukrainian section of the country and most of the wealth in what would be the Russian, smaller sector.

They seemed to think that was an important consideration.
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:33 pm to
quote:

LSURussian



Are you Russian or did you just work in the region long enough to learn the particulars? Either way, its pretty cool experience.
Posted by TN Bhoy
San Antonio, TX
Member since Apr 2010
60589 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:38 pm to
quote:

What's so bad about letting Ukraine split in 2?


Because Ukrainians on both sides of the "split" need Kyiv for their legitimacy. Kyiv is the place the first "Rusyn" state was born, Kyiv is where the "Baptism of the Slavs" occured, etc. They can't split, because they need Kyiv.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:41 pm to
quote:

Are you Russian
Nope. "Made in the USA."

I've worked in Russia and many of the former Soviet Union Republics and in Eastern Europe for more than two decades.

When I first signed up for TigerDroppings I went through about 10 screen names with all of them being already taken.

So, out of frustration that "my" names were taken, I stopped to think what might not be duplicated by another LSU fan.

So I came up with the "Russian" part just to get a screen name that nobody else might have used. Big mistake. Everyone thinks I'm Russian (and I understand why, of course) but I'm not.
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:46 pm to
Haha. Well that is some cool as shite experience you have. We definatly need to nominate you for the poli board state department "Russian Division". Ambassador can be your working title until we think of something more dignified haha.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:48 pm to
quote:

We definatly need to nominate you for the poli board state department "Russian Division". Ambassador can be your working title until we think of something more dignified haha.
I have a feeling you won't get many upvotes for your idea.
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:49 pm to
Naw man, mograyback and sleeping tiger already PMed me, they/he is on board. You are a shoe in.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:53 pm to
Posted by PenguinNinja
Antarctica (and Japan)
Member since Sep 2011
2082 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:54 pm to
quote:

Because Ukrainians on both sides of the "split" need Kyiv for their legitimacy. Kyiv is the place the first "Rusyn" state was born, Kyiv is where the "Baptism of the Slavs" occured, etc. They can't split, because they need Kyiv.


They need Kiev for "legitimacy"? What doe that even mean?

Russia doesn't have Kiev, and they seem to be surviving.
Posted by OleWar
Troy H. Middleton Library
Member since Mar 2008
5828 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:54 pm to
quote:

Because Ukrainians on both sides of the "split" need Kyiv for their legitimacy. Kyiv is the place the first "Rusyn" state was born, Kyiv is where the "Baptism of the Slavs" occured, etc. They can't split, because they need Kyiv.


That is an excellent point, furthermore drawing the line becomes complicated as certain populations centers would become isolated.

More importantly Eastern Ukrainians do not necessarily want to become part of Russia, they still think of themselves as Ukrainians even though they have trouble speaking the language. The elites in the East have more economic connections with Europe then those in the west. A large sector of the population are very sympathetic to Soviet nostalgia but they don't think of themselves as Russians. They lost power in the revolution and are looking for Russia to help them, but they are probably reticent about becoming part of Russia. The most important thing the new government should be doing right now is reaching out to Party of Regions members, before there really is Malo Russiya and Galicia as Putin supposedly put it.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 5:56 pm to
quote:

They need Kiev for "legitimacy"? What doe that even mean?
Don't listen to him. All I heard was 'herp derp.'
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 6:01 pm to
quote:

before there really is Malo Russiya
"Myla" means "little" or "small" in Russian.

Ukraine has been referred to as "Myla Russiya" (Little Russia) for hundreds of years by the Russians.
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