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Does everyone deserve equal rights?

Posted on 2/5/14 at 5:38 am
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
58012 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 5:38 am


If our rights do not come from a creator and are natural rights, should all men's rights be equal? If one believes we come from a Creator and we have eternal souls, than obviously we are unique creations with a particular value. But if we are a random result of nature, we are indeed not created equal and the laws of nature dictate our standing and value.
And as a result wouldn't rights have to be dispensed according to position and skills instead of equally?
Does a person who refuses to work and is a drain on society deserve the right to vote? Does a woman who can't read and is an alcoholic deserve the right to procreate? Should a person who has shown a propensity for violence and is unwilling to depart from a life of crime deserve to live?
This post was edited on 2/5/14 at 5:40 am
Posted by Qwerty
Member since Dec 2010
2114 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 5:45 am to
Of course, just some are more equal than others...
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
58012 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 5:58 am to
quote:

Of course, just some are more equal than others...



More equal > equal
Posted by catholictigerfan
Member since Oct 2009
56011 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:10 am to
Yes but I think you are addressing the to non believers

These rights are right to life, right to free practice of religion, right to private property (meaning government shouldn't step in a just steal property, it doesn't mean every person should have free property you still have to obtain it for yourself). A couple others I may be forgetting


Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
58012 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:13 am to
quote:

These rights are right to life, right to free practice of religion, right to private property (meaning government shouldn't step in a just steal property, it doesn't mean every person should have free property you still have to obtain it for yourself). A couple others I may be forgetting



But if our rights derive from nature instead of a creator, shouldn't our system be solely designed to function by survival of the fittest and let those who are weaker die off? Instead we enable the weak to prosper. ( Catholic, you know how I feel about this and I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate)
This post was edited on 2/5/14 at 6:16 am
Posted by HempHead
Big Sky Country
Member since Mar 2011
55464 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:15 am to
Rights do not exist in the objective sense, human society does tend to function better when certain rights are preserved.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
58012 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:21 am to
quote:

Rights do not exist in the objective sense, human society does tend to function better when certain rights are preserved.



Would one of those rights be the right to vote? And should a person who pays no income taxes be allowed to vote to raise such taxes on others?
This post was edited on 2/5/14 at 6:30 am
Posted by Qwerty
Member since Dec 2010
2114 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:23 am to
quote:

More equal > equal


Thanks for the clarification.
Posted by HempHead
Big Sky Country
Member since Mar 2011
55464 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:30 am to
quote:

Would one of those rights be the right to vote? And should a person who who pays no income taxes be allowed to vote to raise such taxes on others?



No, I do not think that voting is/should be a right.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
58012 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:33 am to
quote:

No, I do not think that voting is/should be a right.



So what other rights should be allocated by position?
This post was edited on 2/5/14 at 6:35 am
Posted by HempHead
Big Sky Country
Member since Mar 2011
55464 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:35 am to
We should all have the same rights (most essentially, the right of self-ownership). Voting is just not among them, in my opinion.

quote:

So what other rights should be allocated by position?


I am not advocating rights being allocated by position, I'm just against voting and the democratic process in general.
This post was edited on 2/5/14 at 6:36 am
Posted by catholictigerfan
Member since Oct 2009
56011 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:43 am to
Rev I'm going to respond to your point but I have to go for a-little while.

give me an hour or two and I'll give you my response.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
58012 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 6:56 am to
quote:

Rev I'm going to respond to your point but I have to go for a-little while. give me an hour or two and I'll give you my response.



Sure thing.
Posted by CJM18
BHM
Member since Dec 2013
163 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 7:06 am to
If there is no creator then the answer is no. There is no foundation for the value of human life or rights if there is no God.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
58012 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 7:08 am to
quote:

If there is no creator then the answer is no. There is no foundation for the value of human life or rights if there is no God.



We share the same view but non believers would try and convince us that nature somehow bestows some special privilege to us that merits rights.
If I didn't believe in a Creator, I could easily be convinced that large portions of humanity don't deserve to live.
This post was edited on 2/5/14 at 7:11 am
Posted by HempHead
Big Sky Country
Member since Mar 2011
55464 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 7:10 am to
quote:

non believers would try and convince us that nature somehow bestows some special privilege to us that merits rights.


Or, as I have said, rights do not objectively exist (neither do morals), but civilization and human happiness tend to excel when certain 'rights' are thought to be innate.
Posted by CITWTT
baton rouge
Member since Sep 2005
31765 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 7:13 am to
Equal rights yes, equal outcomes no, very much emphatically so. That is just another way of expressing the income disability argument.
Posted by Qwerty
Member since Dec 2010
2114 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 7:22 am to
Some of the things you listed are rights, while others are not. The right to vote has intrinsic qualifiers. The qualifiers have changed over time. Voting is a good example.

The rights that we do have are rights in relation to each other and to the state, because we are made in the image of God. I don't have more intrinsic value than you because we are both made in God's image. The concept of justice towards each flows from this fact. The state doesn't have the right to do injustice because of this fact. That is the basic nature of these rights, negative rights that prevent oppression and provide freedom/liberty. This is not the same as the so called right to healthcare or phones or housing.

We often though mistake rights towards each other with rights towards our creator. We have no rights with respect to him. He doesn't owe us life, health, success, etc. But we try to legislate equality of outcome because we perceive life to be unfair.
Posted by CJM18
BHM
Member since Dec 2013
163 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 7:27 am to
quote:

Or, as I have said, rights do not objectively exist (neither do morals


So you hold that no human action (murder for example) is objectively wrong?

quote:

but civilization and human happiness tend to excel when certain 'rights' are thought to be innate.


Pure pragmatism.
Posted by HempHead
Big Sky Country
Member since Mar 2011
55464 posts
Posted on 2/5/14 at 7:30 am to
quote:

So you hold that no human action (murder for example) is objectively wrong?


Not really, but we are better off not killing each other. I'm not saying that I don't have morals, or that I don't think that a moral framework is conducive to human success, it's just that I don't think they actually exist outside of our own minds.

quote:

Pure pragmatism.


Yes.
This post was edited on 2/5/14 at 7:31 am
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