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Healthcare costs and tort reform - crushing your myths
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:21 am
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:21 am
So there is an anchored thread which is nothing more than a troll thread where this topic got brought up.
So let's lay out some facts:
1. The U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation on healthcare by a wide margin.
In 2011 OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) claimed that the U.S. spent 17.7% of our GDP on healthcare. The next highest country on the list would be the Netherlands coming in at a very distant second of 11.9%
If you look at it in terms of Per Capita Purchasing Power Parity we also come in at #1 at $8,508 compared to #2 Norway at #$5,669 coming in at a distant second once again
Wikipedia reference
LINK
Feel free to browse the sources if you don't like wikipedia
So everyone knows that malpractice lawsuits do come at some cost but how much?
So 56 billion dollars is a lot of money. No one will doubt that. But looking at the overall picture how much are we talking about?
Even if you discounted the entire 2.4% it's pretty obvious that we would still have by far the most costly healthcare in the world.
Now this article is actually pro tort reform:
LINK
Do we need tort reform? Probably. Will we still have the most expensive healthcare in the world even with tort reform? Absolutely.
Here are a few quotes from another article that lists multiple sources
LINK
Feel free to read up on the topic at your leisure.
So let's lay out some facts:
1. The U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation on healthcare by a wide margin.
In 2011 OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) claimed that the U.S. spent 17.7% of our GDP on healthcare. The next highest country on the list would be the Netherlands coming in at a very distant second of 11.9%
If you look at it in terms of Per Capita Purchasing Power Parity we also come in at #1 at $8,508 compared to #2 Norway at #$5,669 coming in at a distant second once again
Wikipedia reference
LINK
Feel free to browse the sources if you don't like wikipedia
So everyone knows that malpractice lawsuits do come at some cost but how much?
quote:
Let’s start with some basics. How much does the malpractice system really cost in the U.S.? The most recent, comprehensive estimate, which was published in Health Affairs in December, estimated that medical liability system costs were about $55.6 billion in 2008 dollars,
So 56 billion dollars is a lot of money. No one will doubt that. But looking at the overall picture how much are we talking about?
quote:
or about 2.4 percent of all U.S. health-care spending. Some of that was indemnity payments, and some of it was the cost of components like lawyers, judges, etc.; most of this, however, or about $47 billion, was defensive medicine. So yes, that is real money, and it theoretically could be reduced.
Even if you discounted the entire 2.4% it's pretty obvious that we would still have by far the most costly healthcare in the world.
Now this article is actually pro tort reform:
quote:
Elmendorf wrote that newly available research prompted CBO to update "its analysis of the effects of tort reform." The agency's conclusion: A package of reforms that included a $250,000 cap on damages for pain and suffering and a $500,000 cap on punitive damages "would reduce total national health care spending by about 0.5 percent."
The federal government would reap a substantial portion of those savings, the CBO said, primarily through reduced Medicare costs.
LINK
Do we need tort reform? Probably. Will we still have the most expensive healthcare in the world even with tort reform? Absolutely.
Here are a few quotes from another article that lists multiple sources
quote:
The Congressional Budget Office said Friday that reforming some aspects of medical malpractice law would reduce the federal deficit by $54 billion over a decade.
LINK
Feel free to read up on the topic at your leisure.
This post was edited on 2/2/14 at 11:38 am
20
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:34 am to Powerman
Thank God someone else has brought a little sanity to the issue of malpractice costs and overall healthcare (until NC_Tiger comes in and starts pissing on things 
).
I don't have a problem with reasonable tort reform when it comes to medical malpractice, but the lawsuits aren't the big problem in healthcare costs that some people suggest.
). I don't have a problem with reasonable tort reform when it comes to medical malpractice, but the lawsuits aren't the big problem in healthcare costs that some people suggest.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:40 am to VOR
I suspect an avalanche of meaningless anecdotes coming in the near future. I'm sure there will be plenty to serve as meaningless distractions for people that don't understand the scale of the numbers involved here.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:40 am to Powerman
There is no way to quantify the impact of Defensive Medicine. Unless you are a Doctor, with your butt on the line, every day/every patient, you haven't a clue. You can bring nice grafts and charts out, every expert you want....Not a F'ing clue!
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:41 am to VOR
to compare, 2012 Medicare spending was around $535B and total Medicaid spending was about $415B
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:41 am to Powerman
quote:
So 56 billion dollars is a lot of money.
Does that include what doctors have to pay in insurance?
I don't think anyone will argue with you that something needs to be done but it's how we are going about it people don't like.
You can never compare the health care here in the US with foreign countries. We don't have to wait 6 months to a year just to get a minor surgery or have babies die because they did not want to perform a C-section and take the baby. I work with guys from all over the world and I wouldn't swap my health care for theirs.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:44 am to Powerman
quote:
compared to #2 Norway
quote:Do some work for yourself.
next highest country on the list would be the Netherlands
Google the average medical lawsuit award per claim in those two countries. Then consider the frequency of litigation in those countries.
Compare the costs and frequency with rates in the US.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:45 am to VOR
quote:True. It's not the cost of the suits/insurance, although it is signicant. What is all but impossible to calculate is the cost of providers ordering unnecessary tests, admitting patients unnecessarily, and doing other defensive medicine techniques to avoid the malpractice lawsuits. NC listed some references and cites to show it. Deny it all you want but it is significant - huge in fact!
I don't have a problem with reasonable tort reform when it comes to medical malpractice, but the lawsuits aren't the big problem in healthcare costs that some people suggest
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:46 am to CamdenTiger
quote:
There is no way to quantify the impact of Defensive Medicine. Unless you are a Doctor, with your butt on the line, every day/every patient, you haven't a clue. You can bring nice grafts and charts out, every expert you want....Not a F'ing clue!
I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, but I sometimes wonder how much of that, at least occasionally, is the physician going overboard. Sometimes it's the same with law, actually. One of the guys in my office suite spends agonizing amounts of worry, time and effort, unnecessarily, because he thinks he can eliminate every risk.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:48 am to Diamondawg
quote:
What is all but impossible to calculate is the cost of providers ordering unnecessary tests, admitting patients unnecessarily, and doing other defensive medicine techniques to avoid the malpractice lawsuits. NC listed some references and cites to show it. Deny it all you want but it is significant - huge in fact!
I don't disagree. I would also point out the unnecessary part.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:48 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Do some work for yourself.
Google the average medical lawsuit award per claim in those two countries. Then consider the frequency of litigation in those countries.
Compare the costs and frequency with rates in the US.
Oh Please Click me NC Tigah! I'm so horny!
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:49 am to Powerman
56 billion is a laughably low number
The true cost can't be quantified because it is so ingrained into the culture of medicine. The arse covering has evolved along with the the science and technology, along with the payment systems.
The true cost is inherent to the process. I see it everyday. In fact, my very job probably wouldn't exist without it.
The true cost can't be quantified because it is so ingrained into the culture of medicine. The arse covering has evolved along with the the science and technology, along with the payment systems.
The true cost is inherent to the process. I see it everyday. In fact, my very job probably wouldn't exist without it.
This post was edited on 2/2/14 at 11:51 am
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:50 am to CamdenTiger
quote:
You can bring nice grafts
No thanks. I'll leave that to the doctors.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:50 am to Powerman
quote:
So everyone knows that malpractice lawsuits do come at some cost but how much?
But you said in the other thread it was no cost because it couldn't reduce the gap. So, now you are walking it back? Good.
quote:
Even if you discounted the entire 2.4% it's pretty obvious that we would still have by far the most costly healthcare in the world.
So, by that logic anything we did do reduce HC costs by 20% would be meaningless if we were still behind 'the rest of the world'. I don't care what the rest of the world costs. I can't go there to get treatment.
quote:
Elmendorf wrote that newly available research prompted CBO to update "its analysis of the effects of tort reform." The agency's conclusion: A package of reforms that included a $250,000 cap on damages for pain and suffering and a $500,000 cap on punitive damages "would reduce total national health care spending by about 0.5 percent."
The federal government would reap a substantial portion of those savings, the CBO said, primarily through reduced Medicare costs.
So, the first sentence is against Tort reform and the second sentence is for Tort reform. Would you like to take a position on Tort and stick with it?
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:52 am to Diamondawg
quote:
NC listed some references and cites to show it. Deny it all you want but it is significant - huge in fact!
Yes 56 billion dollars is huge
But not standing next to a trillion dollars
And not when our per capita health costs are ~50% more than the second most expensive health care system in the world.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:52 am to Powerman
quote:
I suspect an avalanche of meaningless anecdotes coming in the near future.
So far, there are none. Wanta but a bright line def on 'near future?'
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:53 am to Powerman
1) Insurance became the primary payment method
2) They operate in these monopolized markets
3) There are layers and layers of admin cost
It's a giant Rube Goldberg machine.
2) They operate in these monopolized markets
3) There are layers and layers of admin cost
It's a giant Rube Goldberg machine.
This post was edited on 2/2/14 at 11:57 am
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:54 am to VOR
quote:
I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, but I sometimes wonder how much of that, at least occasionally, is the physician going overboard. Sometimes it's the same with law, actually. One of the guys in my office suite spends agonizing amounts of worry, time and effort, unnecessarily, because he thinks he can eliminate every risk.
You have to go overboard. There are reasonable people out there, but there are some unreasonable, as well.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:57 am to Patrick O Rly
quote:
1) Insurance became the primary payment method
2) They operate in these monopolized markets
3) There are layers and layers of admin cost
It's a giant Rube Goldberg machine.
pretty much
Posted on 2/2/14 at 11:58 am to Zach
quote:
So far, there are none. Wanta but a bright line def on 'near future?'
Perhaps my comment discouraged them.
But I've seen nothing to substantiate the claim that tort reform would "close the gap" a claim that you agreed with in the other thread.
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