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Bill Simmons nailed it regarding the Brady/Manning argument

Posted on 1/17/14 at 10:02 pm
Posted by NawlinsTiger9
Where the mongooses roam
Member since Jan 2009
34905 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 10:02 pm
Love or hate the guy, he hit this right on the head, IMO

Here's the question that he's responding to:

quote:

Q: You know what this weekend is right? It’s the G.O.A.T. Bowl between Brady and Manning. If Brady beats Manning and plays spoiler to Evil Manning’s sensational season, can the Brady v. Manning debate finally be over? Manning can’t be the best ever if he is 1-3 against Brady in AFC championship games and 4-11 overall. It’s the final nail in the coffin of Manning’s playoff legacy. Isn’t beating Brady crucial for his career credentials?
—Peter, Saratoga Springs


And his answer:

quote:

SG: Well, we know Manning already pulled a Wilt and clinched the “greatest regular-season QB ever” title. We know he shed any and all legacy baggage after the Colts rallied from 18 to beat the 2006 Pats, and that — short of totally self-destructing on Sunday, throwing six picks, having a nervous breakdown and being carted off the field while deliriously screaming “Omaha!” over and over again — nothing could change what you would write about Manning 30 years from now. After that 2006 comeback, I wrote that he only needed a Super Bowl victory “to enter the John Elway Zone — loosely translated to mean, ‘All right, here’s my ring, now you guys can all shut the hell up and leave me alone.’” And that’s how it played out. You win the ring, everyone shuts their trap. Meanwhile, Brady could lose on Sunday, retire to become a full-time Uggs spokesman and own this legacy: three rings, five Super Bowls, eight AFC title games in 12 years, one of the most memorable QB seasons ever (2007). And that’s not changing, either.

OK, so let’s say one of them shines and wins the next two games. Could you really say that earns him GOAT status? Manning’s career has been marred by a steady slew of playoff collapses; Brady hasn’t won the title for nearly a decade. That has to mean something, right? I don’t see us ever solving the Quarterback GOAT question — it’s not like basketball, where the best player in the Finals almost always wins. Football has too many variables: defense, coaching, special teams, home-field advantage, weather, lucky bounces, unexpected fumbles … too much happens that a quarterback can’t control. Brady came within two plays of winning five Super Bowls and one first down in Indy of battling the immortal Rex Grossman in a sixth … but any fan of the 2001 Raiders, 2001 Rams, 2003 Panthers and 2011 Ravens would stomp their feet in disbelief if you played the “If only Brady had better luck!” card. shite happens in football — for you and against you.

So my vote for QB GOAT goes to nobody, regardless of what happens these next two rounds. It’s more like, “Did that dude crack the conversation or not?” And you can’t have the “Best QB” conversation without these five guys being involved: Brady, Manning, Montana, Elway and Unitas. (Every other candidate comes with a “But … ,” whether it’s Marino, Favre, Young, Bradshaw, Luckman, Graham, Baugh or whomever.) Year after year, those five guys gave you the best chance to contend — of anyone — as long as you surrounded them with a half-decent team. I don’t think someone like Aaron Rodgers cares about being remembered as the GOAT; he just wants to win some titles, make some money, stay healthy and turn that list from five to six.

One other thing to remember: I’m 99 percent sure that Manning and Brady don’t care about this head-to-head stuff (and wrote as much in 2011). There’s a weird kinship between quarterbacks; they’re almost like famous brain surgeons or something. Only THEY know how hard that job is. They get along off the field, work out together, support each other and pick each other’s brains. When Manning and Brady suffered major injuries, each called the other to lend their support. And they both assumed that I just keep plowing along, I just care about the next game mentality years and years ago. There’s no other way.

When I called Brady about his “rivalry” with Manning in 2011, I gotta admit, it was mildly disappointing to find out that he didn’t care. Only one thing mattered to him: that playing Manning was always a challenge, something you couldn’t take lightly. That’s it. We want these guys to care about legacies and rivalries and all of that 24/7 talking head/sports fan/message board bullshite, but at least in football, you can’t think that way. They’re concentrating on staying healthy, outsmarting opponents, remembering playbooks, competing, working out, brainstorming … there’s just too much to do. That’s the reality.

The best thing about Sunday’s AFC title game? That we’re running this thing back. Bird and Magic clashed in three out of four NBA Finals, at the peak of their powers … and then it never happened again. Brady and Manning battled in three AFC playoff games in four years, right as they were hitting their primes … and then it never happened again. So this is cool. Everyone wins, I say.



This post was edited on 1/17/14 at 10:03 pm
Posted by wildtigercat93
Member since Jul 2011
112340 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 10:04 pm to
This is the last guy I would ask for his opinion on this or any football question



but hes right. the GOAT is just message board fodder and is an unwinnable argument
Posted by TheCaterpillar
Member since Jan 2004
76774 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 10:08 pm to
quote:

but hes right. the GOAT is just message board fodder and is an unwinnable argument



Yep

I disagree with his basketball assessment though. Outcomes are more determined by great players, but still not entirely.

There are top 5/10 players that are forgotten constantly due to lack of winning it all several times with great teammates (Oscar Robinson, Dr. J)

No sport that is not individual can have a clear cut GOAT ever...its immeasurable.
Posted by sugar71
NOLA
Member since Jun 2012
9967 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 10:17 pm to
That loud mouth needs to keep Wilt's name out of his mouth.

Jerry West is 1-9 in NBA Finals & is called Mr. Clutch.


Wilt's 'teams' won 2 Rings (carrying dreadful West to his only &1) & Wilt essentially 2 Finals MVP's .
Posted by TH03
Mogadishu
Member since Dec 2008
171037 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 10:22 pm to
he's absolutely right, but he didn't really say anything RE: manning vs Brady as far as who is the better QB. just talked about how we should be happy just to watch them
Posted by NawlinsTiger9
Where the mongooses roam
Member since Jan 2009
34905 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 10:41 pm to
I was more or less referring to his argument that picking a GOAT QB in the NFL is impossible because of the amount of variables present.

That and his observation of the overblown, illogical message board/ESPN talking points of "QB 1 vs. QB 2"
This post was edited on 1/17/14 at 10:42 pm
Posted by Chad504boy
4 posts
Member since Feb 2005
166339 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 10:46 pm to
What a pussy article with 4000 words saying nothing


Manning loses he's a fraud
Posted by Draconian Sanctions
Markey's bar
Member since Oct 2008
84879 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:00 pm to
quote:

GOAT is just message board fodder and is an unwinnable argument


wrong

Posted by VerlanderBEAST
Member since Dec 2011
18985 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:03 pm to
In 30 years people will look back see Manning 5x MVP, 3x MVP runner up, 7x 1st team all pro and no one will argue. Manning was the much better QB while Brady played on much better teams.
Posted by Draconian Sanctions
Markey's bar
Member since Oct 2008
84879 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:04 pm to
quote:

In 30 years people will look back see Manning 5x MVP, 3x MVP runner up, 7x 1st team all pro and no one will argue. Manning was the much better QB while Brady played on much better teams.


i actually think Bill is spot on when he says we will look back on it the same way we look back on Wilt vs Russell. Especially if NE wins on Sunday.


And it's very debatable that Brady had better talent around him BTW. He certainly does not this go around...
This post was edited on 1/17/14 at 11:06 pm
Posted by VerlanderBEAST
Member since Dec 2011
18985 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:11 pm to
quote:

i actually think Bill is spot on when he says we will look back on it the same way we look back on Wilt vs Russell. Especially if NE wins on Sunday.


Russell won more MVPs than Wilt so that comparison doesn't hold any water.

quote:

And it's very debatable that Brady had better talent around him BTW. He certainly does not this go around...


Brady has a much better team around him this year evidence by the fact that his team 5-1 in games Brady throws for <200 yards. Including a playoff game in which Brady did next to nothing and his team won by 20.
Posted by Draconian Sanctions
Markey's bar
Member since Oct 2008
84879 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:16 pm to
quote:

Russell won more MVPs than Wilt so that comparison doesn't hold any water.


regardless, it's pretty much the way it will be remembered

quote:

Brady has a much better team around him this year evidence by the fact that his team 5-1 in games Brady throws for <200 yards. Including a playoff game in which Brady did next to nothing and his team won by 20.


i think this is more evidence that brady has one of the 2 or 3 best coaches of all time, not the most talent around him. if you compare the active rosters for Sunday Denver has the better team and it's really not close.
This post was edited on 1/17/14 at 11:17 pm
Posted by VerlanderBEAST
Member since Dec 2011
18985 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:21 pm to
quote:

regardless, it's pretty much the way it will be remembered
Not by smart people

quote:

i think this is more evidence that brady has one of the 2 or 3 best coaches of all time, not the most talent around him.
The Patriots are better than the Broncos in every aspect(rushing offense, defense, special teams) except the one that the QB actually has an effect passing offense
Posted by ItsThatDude12
Giving out Mercy Knees
Member since Apr 2009
9927 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:24 pm to
The great Joe Montana in the prime of his career in 1985 they went to the Giants "The Midgets" a good defense on the road he scored 3 points in the playoffs.......the next year they went back to Gotham and played a good defense on the road and scored 3 pts.

Not even close to the GOAT
Posted by Draconian Sanctions
Markey's bar
Member since Oct 2008
84879 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:26 pm to
quote:

Not by smart people


well okay but if NE wins tomorrow it will be remembered by the majority of people in a similar way

quote:

The Patriots are better than the Broncos in every aspect


but unquestionably have less talent
Posted by FootballNostradamus
Member since Nov 2009
20509 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:28 pm to
quote:

The Patriots are better than the Broncos in every aspect(rushing offense, defense, special teams) except the one that the QB actually has an effect passing offense


Because throwing to New England's WRs is the same as trowing to Denver's . Julian Edleman was supposed to be Brady's like 6th option this season. Hell they basically use a 3rd string RB as a WR.

The Bronco's absolutely have the talent edge this year, and it's not debatable IMO. Their running game could be just as good as New England's if they wanted it to be. Moreno absolutely slaughtered the Pats in their first matchup.
Posted by Draconian Sanctions
Markey's bar
Member since Oct 2008
84879 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:29 pm to
quote:

The great Joe Montana in the prime of his career in 1985 they went to the Giants "The Midgets" a good defense on the road he scored 3 points in the playoffs.......the next year they went back to Gotham and played a good defense on the road and scored 3 pts.

Not even close to the GOAT


so we are now going to cherrypick 1 or 2 games and say that disqualifies people to be the GOAT? I guess everyone is disqualified


the fact of the matter is this: to people who actually saw Joe play he was 1) an ice cold assassin that would rip your heart out at a moments notice and only got better as the game went on and 2) was extremely accurate under pressure, finding perfect strikes to receivers in stride while hearing footsteps in an era when offenses (and quarterbacks specifically) were not given nearly the latitude they are today.
This post was edited on 1/17/14 at 11:33 pm
Posted by FootballNostradamus
Member since Nov 2009
20509 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:30 pm to
Simmons is absolutely right on about the argument though.

To think that Brady had all the "luck" in his first couple of runs and then it's sorta caught-up to him with the insane Eli plays and the Indy game.

Crazy to think he's 3-4 plays away from having 6.
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
65132 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:31 pm to
quote:

the great Joe Montana in the prime of his career in 1985


That was not the prime of his career. I would say 1987-1990 was the prime of Joe Montana's career.
This post was edited on 1/17/14 at 11:32 pm
Posted by VerlanderBEAST
Member since Dec 2011
18985 posts
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:38 pm to
quote:

well okay but if NE wins tomorrow it will be remembered by the majority of people in a similar way
It will be remembered as Brady has the better team, while Manning is the better QB

quote:

but unquestionably have less talent
In what way? The Pats have better players in every area except the one the QB has an effect on.
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