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Message
re: The Sex Pistols played Baton Rouge in 1978
Posted on 1/15/14 at 10:49 am to Sayre
Posted on 1/15/14 at 10:49 am to Sayre
quote:
Congratulations. Not everybody works that hard to prove they're clueless.
You're welcome. You then refuted precisely zero of my argument. Make an argument for your case, don't just call the other guy stupid.
quote:
In specific reference to your last paragraph, do you have even the most basic understanding of the music industry in England at that time. Do you really think DIY was something viable for English bands?
Of course it was. Just as it was viable for American bands. Now, would the Sex Pistols have had a #1 single or been on the Today show? No. Of course not. But they wanted to be stars. They wanted to be part of the machinery, protests to the contrary. American punk pretty much developed, post 1977, completely outside the music industry which allowed for complete artistic freedom but guaranteed it wouldn't get on the radio.
Dischord was started by teenagers in high school. SST was a radio repair shop. They were completely barred from entry from the music industry as well, so they just made their own. And given the incredible physical distance involved, it was actually more difficult for American bands. They did it anyway (thanks to some pioneering tours by Black Flag, creating an underground network across the nation). But American punk bands had to record at 3 AM, use old tapes, make the artwork themselves, glue the covers together on their own, and play in non-traditional venues as bars and clubs wouldn't book them. I mean, I love the Clash, but how are they really different from the Rolling Stones (who I also love)?
It's why vets of the American hardcore scene of the 80s have little but contempt for the British punk scene. They were counterculture, as approved by the music industry. As soon as they cut off funding, they fell apart. American hardcore developed almost entirely with at best indifference and at worst outright hostility from the record industry.
Our band could be your life.
quote:
Paul Cook and Steve Jones in particular spent a lot of time nailing their parts down. It's pretty well polished.
Yeah, which is why it has more in common with hard rock and metal. For a band that claims anarchy, their record sounds real polished. But a polished turd is still a turd. Give me the joyful anarchy of Black Flag (even with Spot's pretty f'n awful production).
British punk and American punk really took two divergent roads. It's funny people talk of the Ramones influence, but they are far more influential to British bands than here in the States. And I do like a lot of old British punk bands (the Clash, Stiff Little Fingers, the Buzzcocks, etc), but they did have very little influence on the American hardcore scene. I think Creedence might've had more influence on American hardcore than the Sex Pistols (almost entirely due to the Minutemen's worship of them, and Fortunate Son, a near template for US punk even though it didn't exist yet).
This post was edited on 1/15/14 at 10:51 am
1
Posted on 1/15/14 at 12:01 pm to checkurhead
quote:
Where was the Kingfish located? Not originally from BR.
I believe it was in the shopping center off perkins, adjacent to where the bulldog is currently located.
Posted on 1/15/14 at 12:35 pm to bleeng
quote:
In. Got there early. Stood about 3 or 4 persons from the stage. Just missed getting hit a big Johnny Rotten loogie. Raucous.
We must've been practically shoulder-to-shoulder.
Posted on 1/15/14 at 1:14 pm to vandelay industries
quote:
like who?
Pick just about any punk band in Great Britian at that time and they all have some Pistols influence. I generally think it took a couple years for that direct influence to show up in the U.S. after the Pistols were over, but from what I can hear and what I remember reading they said at the time, American punk bands claim them as being influential.
quote:
albeit much sloppier & lacking any technical proficiency
We're hearing two different things. I don't find Never Mind The Bollocks to be either sloppy or totally lacking in technical proficiency. As a matter of fact, they caught flack from some of the punk fans and their peers at the time because it was too polished for their taste and because it actually sounded like they could play their instruments on the record. Ya gotta remember, the only one who really couldn't play was Sid, and the only track he was on (Bodies), he'd buried under overdubs and you can't hear him playing.
Posted on 1/15/14 at 1:40 pm to Baloo
quote:
Of course it was. Just as it was viable for American bands
The music industry in England at the time was not like it was in the U.S. post '77. When you were completely barred from the music industry, as the Pistols effectively were, they didn't have the same DIY machinery as the Americans had to fall back on. The basic structure and hierarchies between the two cultures were vastly different. And in general the DIY ethic just didn't exist there at that time. Hell, they couldn't even get gigs in England because of the backlash.
quote:
But they wanted to be stars. They wanted to be part of the machinery,
Mclaren wanted them to be stars so they could crate havok and controversy. That was his bag. I don't' think they themselves thought that much into it (other than Lydon I don't think they had the emotional depth to do so).
quote:
Yeah, which is why it has more in common with hard rock and metal.
I don't hear that at all, and I imagine a great many other won't either.
quote:
But a polished turd is still a turd. Give me the joyful anarchy of Black Flag
One man's turd is another man's gem, and our opinions regarding these two acts are directly opposed. I don't think I dislike BF as much as you do the Pistols, I do not think basic production values and song writing abilities are something to dismiss. That's the main problem I have with a lot of American punk from the early to mid-80s. I was there, and in all the years since not much of it appeals to me any more than it did then. Don't get me wrong, I like intense music, but there's nothing wrong with a good song either. Attitude only carries you so far. And it's not just American acts that I find that have that problem. Other than a couple songs I find the Clash to be impossible to listen to too. Just absolutely atrocious. I appreciate what they're trying to say, they just suck at saying it in a tuneful manner.
In general I just do not get the hate the Pistols get from so many American punk fans. A lot of it seems to be based on turf wars and silly beefs and not the simple facts of the matter.
This post was edited on 1/15/14 at 1:43 pm
Posted on 1/15/14 at 1:41 pm to Nuzhuz
The Police also played at the same venue right before they hit it big.
Posted on 1/15/14 at 2:09 pm to Dr. Rockso
quote:
We must've been practically shoulder-to-shoulder.
I wouldn't recognize me now
That loogie would be a collectors item! Someone caught it!
Posted on 1/15/14 at 3:00 pm to Sayre
quote:
they didn't have the same DIY machinery as the Americans had to fall back on.
But there was no DIY machinery here either at the team. People just went out and built it. And the lack of any DIY ethic in Britian is a huge drawback for me. It's just such a passive musical movement (Britsh post-punk OTOH, did seize the controls themselves and "ripped it up and started again" -- I tend to prefer British post-punk and the DIY aesthetic translates to the music).
quote:
Mclaren wanted them to be stars so they could crate havok and controversy. That was his bag. I don't' think they themselves thought that much into it (other than Lydon I don't think they had the emotional depth to do so).
Yeah, which is just so boring to me. Shock and awe is fine, but there has to be some ideas behind it. they were all agit, no prop. And I agree the Pistols lacked emotional depth.
quote:
One man's turd is another man's gem, and our opinions regarding these two acts are directly opposed.
Pretty much. It's why I think the Pistols influence is not very positive. It's all about just being shocking. Bodies, God Save the Queen, Belsen was a Gas... I mean, it's a blueprint for bands like Marilyn Manson. It's trying so aggressively hard to be offensive. But there's no there there, other than just trying to offend.
quote:
I don't think I dislike BF as much as you do the Pistols, I do not think basic production values and song writing abilities are something to dismiss. That's the main problem I have with a lot of American punk from the early to mid-80s. I was there, and in all the years since not much of it appeals to me any more than it did then.
I do think Spot's production on SST records is a travesty. It's a shame so many classic records have such terrible production. Dischord had much better production without having the slicked up sound of the Pistols. But I do think Flag could write some great songs. Damaged, Gimme Gimme Gimme, TV Party, Six Pack, Police Story... those are defining classics of the genre. And I do think they had some talented players over the years (Dez and Chuck, particularly -- I'm also a huge fan of Bill Stevenson as a drummer, but he was a late addition on some of their weaker albums, his great work is with the Descendents and All).
quote:
Attitude only carries you so far. And it's not just American acts that I find that have that problem. Other than a couple songs I find the Clash to be impossible to listen to too. Just absolutely atrocious. I appreciate what they're trying to say, they just suck at saying it in a tuneful manner.
I absolutely agree that attitude only carries you so far, and that's my knock on the Pistols. They are nothing by attitude. The Clash, by contrast, when they failed it was due to being too ambitious. I love that their "sell out" record includes a rap on Atom Tam and poetry readings on Ghetto Defendant. Sandinista famously has its problems, but its not because it's attitude only. If anything, it's just too ambitious (I love Sandinista, BTW)
quote:
In general I just do not get the hate the Pistols get from so many American punk fans. A lot of it seems to be based on turf wars and silly beefs and not the simple facts of the matter.
Because A) they weren't very good B) they were a corporate rip off of a musical movement C) they had a toxic influence due to their incredibly success. I think they are guilty of the attitude only charge more than American hardcore, which quickly grew out of three chords and a cloud of dust. Minor Threat begat Rites of Spring begat Fugazi in the span of a little over five years. Minor Threat broke up in 1983, and Fugazi's debut EP came out in 1988. That's a pretty fast evolution.
I think you're selling American hardcore way short, but that's cool. It did devolve into turf wars and arguments over the rulebook, when there really shouldn't be a rulebook. That's the whole point. Don't like the paradigm... well, make your own.
Posted on 1/15/14 at 5:30 pm to Baloo
quote:
A) they weren't very good
Lots of people I respect musically disagree.
quote:
B) they were a corporate rip off of a musical movement
I honestly don't see how you can say that. They could barely keep themselves on a label, and they never had much success on a broad level while they were together. They were just as involved in the movement as anyone else at the time. They were friends and associates with a lot of the other acts and were looked at as peers by those acts, whether it's the Clash, Souxsie, etc.
Posted on 1/15/14 at 6:20 pm to Sayre
quote:
We're hearing two different things. I don't find Never Mind The Bollocks to be either sloppy or totally lacking in technical proficiency. As a matter of fact, they caught flack from some of the punk fans and their peers at the time because it was too polished for their taste and because it actually sounded like they could play their instruments on the record. Ya gotta remember, the only one who really couldn't play was Sid, and the only track he was on (Bodies), he'd buried under overdubs and you can't hear him playing.
i don't disagree that they were more musically accomplished than their peers, but with a few exceptions (bad brains come to mind), that's not much of a stretch....i'd say their music was more "accessible" than "technically proficient". now, maybe they were more musically disciplined when they went on their reunion trek all those years later, but i'm not hearing it so much from back in the day....
Posted on 1/15/14 at 9:27 pm to vandelay industries
I was there and saw JR spit on the crowd.
I saw Dicky Betts and JJ Cale too.
I saw Dicky Betts and JJ Cale too.
Posted on 1/16/14 at 12:26 am to Nuzhuz
The first time I went to the Kingfish was in 1977. I dragged the ex-poster Coolidge (RIP) to the Kingfish to watch Roy Buchanan during the first semester of our freshman year. I had seen Roy twice before in San Francisco so I knew what to expect. Coolidge became an instant fan. We attended several more shows there that year. We learned that if you ate at Uncle Earl's next door before the show you were likely to see the artists having a meal there also.
We passed on going to see the Sex Pistols with two fellow residents of Hatcher Hall. We probably didn't miss much. One of them was hit with a thrown beer bottle, and they got tossed for fighting before the show even started.
We passed on going to see the Sex Pistols with two fellow residents of Hatcher Hall. We probably didn't miss much. One of them was hit with a thrown beer bottle, and they got tossed for fighting before the show even started.
Posted on 8/6/19 at 12:40 pm to pooponsaban
The original Pistols played about 90 shows. Of the 13 scheduled U.S. shows, they only played 7.
This post was edited on 8/8/19 at 5:41 pm
Posted on 8/6/19 at 12:46 pm to HeadyBrosevelt
The Pistols were a big deal. Your opinion is an opinion. Mine too. It doesnt mean you or I are correct, it just means it's an opinion.
This post was edited on 8/8/19 at 5:43 pm
Posted on 8/6/19 at 12:57 pm to Brosef Stalin
they played 7 US shows, 4 were canceled
Posted on 8/6/19 at 3:09 pm to Boats n Hose
quote:
I actually don't think I've ever heard a single sex pistols song. Ever.
God Save the Queen or Anarchy in the U.K.?
Posted on 8/7/19 at 10:28 am to waybackinc
Johnny didn't do heroin, he rode the tour bus with Sid to keep an eye on Sid who had a smack problem. Steve and Paul took planes with manager Malcolm because they could and they got along with Malcolm. After San Fran concert, Johnny quit/ got fired. The Pistols remained on Warner Bros releasing singles sung by Sid, Steve, Paul, and other frontmen. And W.B. released the Swindle lp. Malcolm milked W.B. and all the Pistols as much as he could. Malcolm kept Sid smacked up on the U.S. tour so he could perform. However it was Malcolm who bailed Sid out of jail after he smashed the bottle over Patti Smith's brother's head.
Posted on 8/7/19 at 10:30 am to Kajungee
quote:
Kajungee
RIP my friend........
Posted on 8/7/19 at 10:37 am to Baloo
Sex Pistols are the greatest punk band ever and Bollocks is the greatest punk album ever. The orig 4 Pistols are all accomplished. Sid was the only dope, in more ways than one. After the Pistols, every other punk band follows.
Posted on 8/7/19 at 11:12 am to Nuzhuz
Didn’t see the SP, but did see plenty other shows...
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