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Message
re: Chipper vs. Biggio
Posted on 1/10/13 at 9:02 am to VerlanderBEAST
Posted on 1/10/13 at 9:02 am to VerlanderBEAST
quote:
Its silly to combine what they did when they were out of their primes and what they did out of their primes.
umm what?
So Dontrelle Willis deserves to be in the hall of fame? In his 1 year prime he went 22-10.
Im thinking longevity is one of the MOST important factor in HOF voting, no?
0
Posted on 1/10/13 at 9:19 am to OBUDan
quote:
This means nothing to me.
OK, but he was still better at it. I wasn't saying Biggio was the better player. In fact, I explicitly stated I think Chipper was. But the idea that "Biggio did nothing better than Chipper" is completely and totally indefensible.
And gap power is important. Chipper could hit it out of the park, but Biggio was actually a better spray hitter. He hit line drives with authority and used his speed to pick up bases. Chipper was a single or a home run. Biggio was anything. I don't think it's enough to offset Chipper's huge homer edge, but it does have significance.
quote:
If that's Biggio's better skill, he can have it.
I agree. I hate bunting too. I'm the high priest of Bunting sucks. But if you're gonna do it, might as well be good at it. And Biggio was better at it.
quote:
Lineup dependent. Chipper got on base at a higher rate, and had more total bases in far fewer PAs. He hit in the middle of the order, not the top. If he hit leadoff for most of his career like Biggio, he would have more runs scored.
His nearly 500 RBI (also lineup dependent) advantage more than makes up for it, anyhow.
Sure, Chipper was a better "run producer" in an RBI sense. And it does offset Biggio's huge advantage in scoring runs. But that's not the argument presented. the argument was "Chipper is better at everything". And that's not true. Biggio was a MUCH better "table setter" than Chipper. Chipper was a better middle of the order hitter.
I'm not a fan of tearing down one player to build another up. And Biggio was scoring about 120 runs a season during his peak, which is insane. If you were making an ideal lineup and you had a spot for a 1/2 hitter, you wouldn't take Biggio? I would. If I needed a 3/4 hitter, I'd take Chipper.
quote:
Better at every skill? No.
Better at most every skill? Yes.
Biggio is a better top of the order hitter, a better runner, I think you're totally discounting his defense (a lot of his career numbers suck because of his late career anchor). Biggio also got more hits and was able to stay healthy. Those are skills, too.
Chipper had more power and was a higher average hitter. Those things are also real important, it's why I think he's the better player. But it's not this chasm you assert.
quote:
But to me, the numbers are completely in his favor, and I don't think that's me being a homer.
They're in his favor, but not nearly as great as you assert. I don't think you're being a homer, I just think you're being extraordinarily anti-Astro, which is fine. But I'm not an NL guy and have no dog in the fight.
Biggio, along with Joe Morgan, is the grand champion of little things. Those little things add up. Biggio was so good at all of the tiny things that eventually it turns into something big. It's the best way to be underrated, other than do everything well and not one thing outstanding.... which is another thing Biggio did.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 9:34 am to Baloo
this is a totally dumb topic...Who's better Rickey Henderson or Hank Aaron...two totally different players that are both Awesome but they are different players
Posted on 1/10/13 at 9:39 am to Elleshoe
quote:
Chipper
Posted on 1/10/13 at 9:51 am to Baloo
quote:
OK, but he was still better at it.
I guess I disagree. The exchange of doubles/triples for homeruns doesn't really make him "better" at it, IMO.
quote:
hipper was a single or a home run.
He was hitting doubles/triples at roughly the same rate as Biggio.
I guess we're just looking at this differently.
quote:
I don't think you're being a homer, I just think you're being extraordinarily anti-Astro,
Why would I be anti-Astro?
In one of my earlier posts I said Biggio was clearly a Hall of Famer, and he should have been 1st ballot.
I'm not trying to tear him down. I just think he pales in comparison to Chipper.
Just to show I'm not being anti-Astro or pro-Braves, I think there's a compelling case that Jeff Bagwell had a better career than Chipper.
Better OPS+, Better OBP, slightly fewer HRs in a season's worth fewer PAs.
If someone wanted to make THAT argument, I could see it.
quote:
Biggio, along with Joe Morgan, is the grand champion of little things. Those little things add up. Biggio was so good at all of the tiny things that eventually it turns into something big. It's the best way to be underrated, other than do everything well and not one thing outstanding.... which is another thing Biggio did.
I don't think he's terribly underrated. Most people acknowledge he was awesome.
I actually think how likable and "gritty" he was make him more popular. I won't say overrated, but I do think it makes people root for his greatness more than say Jeff Bagwell... or Chipper Jones... who were both better.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 9:57 am to Dubosed
Chipper was the better player by a huge margin. I don't really give a shite who the bigger "legend" was because all that is bullshite anyway... though I will say chipper is basically a god to baseball fans here in georgia.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 10:02 am to VerlanderBEAST
quote:
MUCH better fielder, MUCH better base runner and considering the positions got on base equally well. Its close Chipper definitely had a longer prime but give me Biggio
Nothing more than an opinioon about a player you like. Chipper is hands down a better all around ball player than Biggio.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 10:05 am to Elleshoe
there is no debate here, this thread has gone on far too long bc verlanderbeast is a fricktard
Posted on 1/10/13 at 10:27 am to beaver
Chipper is MUCH better than Biggio
and he's a bigger legend everywhere on earth except Texas.
and he's a bigger legend everywhere on earth except Texas.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 10:38 am to Baloo
quote:
And gap power is important. Chipper could hit it out of the park, but Biggio was actually a better spray hitter. He hit line drives with authority and used his speed to pick up bases. Chipper was a single or a home run. Biggio was anything. I don't think it's enough to offset Chipper's huge homer edge, but it does have significance.
Yup, Chipper didn't have the ability to hit line drives with authority, just home runs. Are you kidding me? Just a single or home run hitter? GTFO.
quote:
I agree. I hate bunting too. I'm the high priest of Bunting sucks. But if you're gonna do it, might as well be good at it. And Biggio was better at it.
Biggio hit 2nd, of course he's going to be a better bunter. You can probably count the number of times Chipper was asked to bunt per season on both hands.
quote:
Sure, Chipper was a better "run producer" in an RBI sense. And it does offset Biggio's huge advantage in scoring runs. But that's not the argument presented. the argument was "Chipper is better at everything". And that's not true. Biggio was a MUCH better "table setter" than Chipper. Chipper was a better middle of the order hitter.
No shite he was a better "table setter". He hit second, Chipper hit 3rd. Good grief..
Posted on 1/10/13 at 10:46 am to gatorhata9
quote:
But that's not the argument presented. the argument was "Chipper is better at everything"
This is not the argument.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 10:47 am to motorbreath
It's the one I quoted and disputed. So, yes, it is the argument I was addressing. I agreed Chipper was better.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 10:50 am to SouljaBreauxTellEm
quote:
Ba ha ha you can have your biggio. Can't believe this is serious lol.
THIS...Stros fans have lost their mind!!
And watching Biggio the last few years of his career try to yank every god damn pitch 318' to left field was pathetic!!
Posted on 1/10/13 at 11:03 am to Baloo
quote:
Chipper was a single or a home run.
This is absolutely false
Posted on 1/10/13 at 11:06 am to biglil3
quote:
And watching Biggio the last few years of his career try to yank every god damn pitch 318' to left field was pathetic!!
What the frick else was he gonna do? Single so he could get LOB by Carlos Lee?
Posted on 1/10/13 at 11:38 am to Bench McElroy
quote:
. He was actually a more valuable player at his peak than Chipper was.
Because WAR said so?
frick I hate stat geeks sometimes.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 11:50 am to Dubosed
quote:
Chipper is the Derek Jeter of the South
Wut?
Posted on 1/10/13 at 11:54 am to TigerBait2008
I hate the braves and I've heard that a million times. Basically every baseball announcer says it anytime braves were in town
Posted on 1/10/13 at 11:57 am to Elleshoe
I'm a huge Biggio fan and our families are good friends
But chipper is the bigger legend
But chipper is the bigger legend
Posted on 1/10/13 at 12:06 pm to Carson123987
quote:
But chipper is the bigger legend
Yeah, to white trash.
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