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The misconception that Jefferson does not open up the running game....
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:06 pm
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:06 pm
I've seen it thrown around on here that Jefferson doesn't improve the running game anymore than Lee and I think that is not the case, specifically if you look at our big rushing plays last night.
On many of the big rushes we had, defenders bit on Jefferson first. On one of the hand offs to Blue the defender had Blue in target and stuttered a bit to focus on Jefferson, that gave Blue enough time to make a cut and break it for about 13 yards or so.
Jefferson does open up the running attack. Maybe not every play, but thats impossible for any QB except the likes of a Cam Newton. If a single defender, whether it be a LB off the blitz or a DE getting off his block spends a split second on Jefferson, it gives one our talented backs a extra bit to make something happen.
If we didn't have as talented RBs maybe this wouldn't matter, but with our guys every inch matters and sometimes they'll make the defender play.
Just my thoughts.
On many of the big rushes we had, defenders bit on Jefferson first. On one of the hand offs to Blue the defender had Blue in target and stuttered a bit to focus on Jefferson, that gave Blue enough time to make a cut and break it for about 13 yards or so.
Jefferson does open up the running attack. Maybe not every play, but thats impossible for any QB except the likes of a Cam Newton. If a single defender, whether it be a LB off the blitz or a DE getting off his block spends a split second on Jefferson, it gives one our talented backs a extra bit to make something happen.
If we didn't have as talented RBs maybe this wouldn't matter, but with our guys every inch matters and sometimes they'll make the defender play.
Just my thoughts.
This post was edited on 11/13/11 at 11:07 pm
6
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:08 pm to filmmaker45
Normally, I would agree with you. With the play calling last night, I do not.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:23 pm to Tiger Authority
LSU needs & has to run two separate offenses depending on whose going to take the majority of the snaps at quarterback.
When Jarrett Lee plays extensively, then you're going to see more power formations, which allows for different counters off of those looks (ala play action with vertical shots to the wide receivers, curl routes, etc) in the pass game.
This offense actually plays into Miles' preference, as he likes to pound opposing DL's with a ball control north-south game that physically punishes the opponent and wears them down late.
If you'll notice, Miles plays Ware in these situations more prevalently, & that's because Ware does a much better job with North-South, & finishes plays more often than not by delivering blows & issuing punishment.
When JJ is in the game, you'll see the Pistol a bit, but much, much more shotgun with one back. We run a lot of designed sprint option, predetermined zone-reads & outside zone running plays. This is because JJ's credible run threat makes a team defend these plays laterally. This is also why you see Ford in the game more often when JJ is the starter, because Ford is the edge back, which is where JJ's pitching if he can get his read to commit on option plays where he's reading a key or defender.
We run two different offenses with them in the game. With Lee, we may take up to 20-25 pass attempts if he's doing well and we're getting the right looks out of the D.
If JJ is feeling, we'll still only throw it about 15 times.
The pass-game is simply an afterthought. A potential gotcha that can only be used situationally from time to time, with typically mixed results.
This isn't conjecture. Its both statistical & historical fact. It's what we do, and frankly, its what JJ's limited to by his own abilities-or lack thereof, depending upon how you wish to describe him and them, respectively-within the pass game.
In all honesty, no one can say that Jordan leading our offense in 2011 brings more consistency & success. No one. Its obvious that though we started out slowly, this team on offense moves the ball better & we are more well-suited to put points on the board and possess the ball with Lee at quarterback.
In a more simplified sense, I think JJ may give you an offense that can yield a big play here or there. Lee may give you an offense that can consistently drive the ball while also yielding that same big play.
Not because one's better than the other, but its because one's skillset gives more balance to our offense than the other.
We can already run the ball. The ability to run it out of power formations gives us the versatility to throw it off counters & using PA passes with Lee.
We JJ, we HAVE to run the ball to succeed, because we aren't going to beat anyone throwing it. The run is all we have, though we run it differently. Not necessarily better or worse than with Lee. Just differently.
North South w/added passing, or East-West with occasional big plays is the way you can contrast the Lee/JJ difference.
This isn't an advocation for one over the other. I think its pretty much self-evident for an objective person to figure out what this offense looks best at doing.
When Jarrett Lee plays extensively, then you're going to see more power formations, which allows for different counters off of those looks (ala play action with vertical shots to the wide receivers, curl routes, etc) in the pass game.
This offense actually plays into Miles' preference, as he likes to pound opposing DL's with a ball control north-south game that physically punishes the opponent and wears them down late.
If you'll notice, Miles plays Ware in these situations more prevalently, & that's because Ware does a much better job with North-South, & finishes plays more often than not by delivering blows & issuing punishment.
When JJ is in the game, you'll see the Pistol a bit, but much, much more shotgun with one back. We run a lot of designed sprint option, predetermined zone-reads & outside zone running plays. This is because JJ's credible run threat makes a team defend these plays laterally. This is also why you see Ford in the game more often when JJ is the starter, because Ford is the edge back, which is where JJ's pitching if he can get his read to commit on option plays where he's reading a key or defender.
We run two different offenses with them in the game. With Lee, we may take up to 20-25 pass attempts if he's doing well and we're getting the right looks out of the D.
If JJ is feeling, we'll still only throw it about 15 times.
The pass-game is simply an afterthought. A potential gotcha that can only be used situationally from time to time, with typically mixed results.
This isn't conjecture. Its both statistical & historical fact. It's what we do, and frankly, its what JJ's limited to by his own abilities-or lack thereof, depending upon how you wish to describe him and them, respectively-within the pass game.
In all honesty, no one can say that Jordan leading our offense in 2011 brings more consistency & success. No one. Its obvious that though we started out slowly, this team on offense moves the ball better & we are more well-suited to put points on the board and possess the ball with Lee at quarterback.
In a more simplified sense, I think JJ may give you an offense that can yield a big play here or there. Lee may give you an offense that can consistently drive the ball while also yielding that same big play.
Not because one's better than the other, but its because one's skillset gives more balance to our offense than the other.
We can already run the ball. The ability to run it out of power formations gives us the versatility to throw it off counters & using PA passes with Lee.
We JJ, we HAVE to run the ball to succeed, because we aren't going to beat anyone throwing it. The run is all we have, though we run it differently. Not necessarily better or worse than with Lee. Just differently.
North South w/added passing, or East-West with occasional big plays is the way you can contrast the Lee/JJ difference.
This isn't an advocation for one over the other. I think its pretty much self-evident for an objective person to figure out what this offense looks best at doing.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:25 pm to filmmaker45
It is not a misconception. JJ does not open up the running game!!!!!
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:26 pm to GFunk
quote:
GFunk
tl;dr
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:26 pm to GFunk
I understand what we do with JJ GFunk, and I've felt that we've been very successful and effective in our utilization of him this year. Last night, however, we went away from the formula we've been using with JJ. Maybe it was to get JJ some practice throwing the ball, which I don't really think he needs considering how long he's been with us, but maybe that was it. I don't know. But I do know that running more option plays in one series with Lee than an entire game with JJ doesn't make much sense.
It's my lone complaint. I just don't understand what we were doing last night regarding the play calling. I'm dwelling on this probably too much at this point.
It's my lone complaint. I just don't understand what we were doing last night regarding the play calling. I'm dwelling on this probably too much at this point.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:29 pm to Rudy40
quote:
It is not a misconception. JJ does not open up the running game!!!!!
You are an idiot. Back Lee on his own merits but you cant deny that with JJ its 11 on 11 in the running game. Lee showed he can move on the option too, but we dont really run it with him. With a running qb the running lanes open up for the running backs too its undeniable. Just look at tebow in the NFL. The running backs have been running up and down the field because Tebow is someone the defense has to account for to run. Even though he sucks at passing it helps with the running game-Is JJ tebow no. However is the opposing defense an NFL defense-no.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:29 pm to Rudy40
quote:
It is not a misconception. JJ does not open up the running game!!!!!
Well, this has changed my mind.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:31 pm to Adam Banks
Ahh dude a threat to throw the ball opens up the run much better. With JJ they just creep up tigther and try to defend the outside with Lee they have to actually worry about being beaten deep if they play too tight.
Watch the other teams stacking the box they do it differently with Lee than JJ.
Watch the other teams stacking the box they do it differently with Lee than JJ.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:32 pm to GFunk
quote:
We JJ, we HAVE to run the ball to succeed, because we aren't going to beat anyone throwing it. The run is all we have, though we run it differently. Not necessarily better or worse than with Lee. Just differently.
Not true at all. Jefferson is good throwing the deep ball when he doesn't hold on to long and can deliver some pretty damn good quick strikes.
Just one completion down the field by Jefferson forces safeties to cover.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:33 pm to Tiger Authority
quote:
I understand what we do with JJ GFunk, and I've felt that we've been very successful and effective in our utilization of him this year. Last night, however, we went away from the formula we've been using with JJ. Maybe it was to get JJ some practice throwing the ball, which I don't really think he needs considering how long he's been with us, but maybe that was it. I don't know. But I do know that running more option plays in one series with Lee than an entire game with JJ doesn't make much sense.
It's my lone complaint. I just don't understand what we were doing last night regarding the play calling. I'm dwelling on this probably too much at this point.
I can't say we're trying to get JJ practice throwing the ball because we only threw it 14 times through 3+ quarters. I don't see that being what the deal was, at all.
Miles own comments indicate that even had Lee attended class, he would not have started. He would've gone back to the 2010 deal. He mentioned the 3rd drive deal, & that's silly to me.
I think Miles was-perhaps-interested in seeing if his team can do BOTH the 2010 & the 2011 versions of the offense at this point. Either that, or maybe he's truly committed to riding with JJ from here on out. I think that's a huge gamble, and quite honestly, I view it as a potentially (almost probably, I'm afraid) fatal mistake for his season.
I don't have a dog in the JJ or Lee fight. Don't know either, & I'm not related to either. Don't care if JJ's little brother signs here, or whether either is lined up under Center in New Orleans this year for all the marbles.
But, I do know that the 8-0 Jarrett Lee iteration of the LSU Offense looked like the best LSU Offense anyone has seen-inside or out-whose watched this program since 2007.
To try to change course & start heading up wind at this point after seeing all of these results we've piled up this year is strange to me. I truly hope this was just a one-game diversion, as Miles stated in his PC.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:34 pm to Rudy40
quote:
Ahh dude a threat to throw the ball opens up the run much better. With JJ they just creep up tigther and try to defend the outside with Lee they have to actually worry about being beaten deep if they play too tight.
Jefferson's two play action deep TDs down field this season disagree with you. Also Alabama didn't have to worry about being beat deep at all did they?
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:34 pm to filmmaker45
Seeing as they actually call runs to the outside when he's in the game, you'd be right, but it has almost nothing to do with JJ and more to do with the fact that they actually run to the outside in those situation.
With Lee in, Les and company are determined to run Ware up the middle 100 times a game even if he is averaging 1.5 yards per carry.
We also ran extremely well with Lee in last night, so I don't see where your misconception is coming into play.
Ford was averaging 5.8 ypc before JJ came into the fold. Since JJ's been back, he's averaged 5.6 ypc. There is no statistical difference.
Ware on the other hand average 4.1 ypc before JJ's return, and has since averaged 3.6 ypc.
Outside of Blue emerging, there has been no difference.
Ford is the main one to look at because he most commonly runs with JJ in the option game and his numbers haven't changed.
With Lee in, Les and company are determined to run Ware up the middle 100 times a game even if he is averaging 1.5 yards per carry.
We also ran extremely well with Lee in last night, so I don't see where your misconception is coming into play.
Ford was averaging 5.8 ypc before JJ came into the fold. Since JJ's been back, he's averaged 5.6 ypc. There is no statistical difference.
Ware on the other hand average 4.1 ypc before JJ's return, and has since averaged 3.6 ypc.
Outside of Blue emerging, there has been no difference.
Ford is the main one to look at because he most commonly runs with JJ in the option game and his numbers haven't changed.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:36 pm to filmmaker45
I think majority of the fanbase is putting far FAR more stock into last night then needed to be. Period.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:36 pm to filmmaker45
quote:
filmmaker45
Believe what you like. We got stoned in the run-game in the 1st half for the most part, especially between the tackles. Against Western Kentucky.
This was AFTER we ripped off the longest pass play of the season.
This isn't something that's up for discussion in my book. If you disagree, that's fine. I've got a pretty good handle on how we were defended & what the Safeties were doing last night, & how we've been defended all year.
In other words, I'm not just watching Inside LSU Football & then coming here spouting off, bro.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:36 pm to GFunk
quote:
Miles own comments indicate that even had Lee attended class, he would not have started. He would've gone back to the 2010 deal. He mentioned the 3rd drive deal, & that's silly to me.
You're not buying this missed class thing are you?
quote:
I can't say we're trying to get JJ practice throwing the ball because we only threw it 14 times through 3+ quarters. I don't see that being what the deal was, at all.
I agree. Someone made this argument in another thread. We ran the ball twice as much as we threw it. But I'll continue to say that last night's play calling with JJ made no sense at all. None.
quote:
I don't have a dog in the JJ or Lee fight. Don't know either, & I'm not related to either. Don't care if JJ's little brother signs here, or whether either is lined up under Center in New Orleans this year for all the marbles.
I think both have flaws and both are necessary in order for this team to succeed.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:37 pm to GFunk
quote:
Believe what you like. We got stoned in the run-game in the 1st half for the most part, especially between the tackles. Against Western Kentucky.
Because we went away from everything that has made our rushing attack effective when JJ has been in the game this year. Not sure the reason for it.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:39 pm to filmmaker45
JJ has had 2 long throws but watch the coverages teams dont change the way the defend him after he has hit one of those nor did bama after the Shepard completion simply because they dont believe he can do it consistently so they will risk stopping the run because on a consistent basis JJ wont make them pay. Look at the Defensive alignment before and after JJ hit any of his 3 long passes this year. Just like last year on the rare occasion he did it teams doubted he could do it again and other than TAMU they were right!
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:39 pm to Geaux2002
Lee came in late in the 4th Qtr against a physically beat WKU defense. I'd throw that out of the window. In fact I would throw all of last night out of the window but this entire board is having a fit over a lackluster blow out of a cup cake I felt the need to chime in.
I'm not talking stats here either, as the backs are sometime used differently when the two QBs are in. The fact of the matter is, you can clearly watch defenders bite on Jefferson, which gives a RB a split second to make that extra move. Sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes the defense made the right call, but sometimes it does and to discredit Jefferson for that is just as unfair as most of the crap being thrown around between this meaningless QB discussion.
I'm not talking stats here either, as the backs are sometime used differently when the two QBs are in. The fact of the matter is, you can clearly watch defenders bite on Jefferson, which gives a RB a split second to make that extra move. Sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes the defense made the right call, but sometimes it does and to discredit Jefferson for that is just as unfair as most of the crap being thrown around between this meaningless QB discussion.
Posted on 11/13/11 at 11:42 pm to filmmaker45
quote:
I'm not talking stats here either, as the backs are sometime used differently when the two QBs are in. The fact of the matter is, you can clearly watch defenders bite on Jefferson, which gives a RB a split second to make that extra move. Sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes the defense made the right call, but sometimes it does and to discredit Jefferson for that is just as unfair as most of the crap being thrown around between this meaningless QB discussion.
Well JJ checked to both long td's. So the defense made the right call, JJ changed accordingly, made great throws, and had td's.
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