re: .22 magnum for concealment?

For carry my top recommendations in no order:

Sig P238/P938 (380/9mm respectively)
MP Shield 9mm
Glock 42/43 (380/9mm respectively)
Springfield XDS 9mm
CZ 2075 RAMI 9mm
Walther PPS 9mm
Colt Mustang .380
Khar P380
Khar CM9
Browning 1911-380 (surprisingly easy to conceal)

I have a 22TCM and wouldn't hesitate to use it for defense. It will penetrate level 2 body armor. Similar ballistics to the FN57 and the secret service doesn't seem to have a problem with small bullets.
Another plus is it comes in a 1911

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Thoughts?

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I strongly disagree w/ his endorsement of the 22 Mag as a self defense round for cc, especially in the NAA derringer.

The Hornady 45 gr 22 Mag load developed for self defense shot generates only 843 fps when fired from a 2" barrel. "Ballistics by the Inch." The NAA 22 Mag is only 1 5/8" long. That's basically like using a subsonic 22 LR round for self defense. Plus, I've shot enough 22 rimfire rounds through the years to know that misfires are much to common for a rimfire to serve as a serious self defense round.

You're right. I was thinking it was a revolver with a 6" barrel. The tcm is comparable to the 22mag from a rifle

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Some of you need to remember that stopping the threat comes before the requirement for lethality/rate of incapacitation when it comes to civilian self-defense.

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In theory, dont these go hand and hand? Say, if YOUR life depended on it, wouldn't the best way to stop a threat be to incapacitate it?

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In theory, dont these go hand and hand? Say, if YOUR life depended on it, wouldn't the best way to stop a threat be to incapacitate it?

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No, certainly not for civilian self-defense. The best way to stop a threat is anything that ceases somebody from being a threat in the shortest time possible. If you are under threat and you pulled a handgun and the threat stopped immediately and left your vicinity then any action on your part to incapacitate anyone would be foolish and possibly illegal. Best is dynamic. Best has to fit into a continuum of force. What is best for you is not the best for anyone else nor may it be the best for every situation. In self-defense your absolute primary goal is to stop the threat. Not to incapacitate. Not to kill.

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I'd say a properly made rimfire revolver is at least as reliable as any centerfire semi-auto handgun.

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A. Maybe. You'll note that I said .22 pistols. And the reliability I'm referring to is the ignition of the propellant.

B. What the FBI issues to their agents is VERY relevant to the private citizen who carries concealed.

FBI agents don't wear uniforms (like patrol LEO's) nor do they open carry. If you read up on the lethal threat incidents faced by FBI agents, they are very often quite similar to that of a private citizen (Tom Givens speaks to this phenomenon in his classes -- FBI agents are the targets of muggers just like you or I might be targeted).

C. We would all (99% of us) shoot .22 ammo through a G19 (with an AACK) better (accurate hits at a faster pace) than we do with a G19 shooting 9mm +p+ jacketed HP ammo. But the FBI doesn't (nor does any LE agency I ever heard of) issue .22 pistols.

If we need a pistol for self-defense, we need the bullet to penetrate to vital organs. And if the path to those vital organs is obstructed by bones, ribs, or a car door, we need the bullet to penetrate. It is completely silly to pretend that a .22 will serve as well as a .38 , a 9mm , a .40 or a .45 for the "variety" of lethal threats we might face.

D. I agree 100% that detecting a threat, and avoiding that threat, is better than shooting at that threat. I preach this all day long in my CCW classes. But if the avoidance doesn't work, and if deescalation doesn't work, we better have a weapon that will stop the threat.

BUT, anyone who assumes that "If you are under threat and you pulled a handgun and the threat stopped immediately and left your vicinity" is gonna work every time needs to read up on sociopaths, psychopaths and drug (meth, bath salts, et al) users.

If the dude (or dudette) ceases the attack when you produce a weapon, great. We/you won. No shots fired. The big "what if" is -- what if he/she doesn't stop just because you/we pull a gun.

Now we/you need something to stop that attack. And if you're a good enough shot, the .22 might be just fine. (Heck a pellet rifle can be lethal with the right shot placement.) Personally I prefer something like a 9mm, that provides a good balance between controllability, reliability, and penetration
Go ahead and carry that .22. I certainly don't care. But I'd hate for someone to read your comments and assume that it's a good idea.

I'd never recommend that to a student. I've never taken a handgun self-defense training class where the instructors carried or recommended carrying .22's (or .25's, or .32's or .380's for that matter). It's a choice you or anyone can make -- but there are much better choices out there.

eta: For those who think a .22 LR will ignite reliably, go shoot a rimfire match and watch how many .22 caliber handguns experience a failure-to-fire.

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But, you don't have the ability to know what is going to work going into a situation.

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And you have no idea about terminal ballistics and the myth of stopping power.

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Hell, your argument, BEST would be to never go outside again.

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That's not my argument at all and you being dishonest doesn't help you make one either.

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I'm going to guess 99% of CCers would agree.

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There are a lot of ignorant people in the world, that's for sure. Of course that 1% have just the same right to use whatever gun for self-defense too.

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A. Maybe. You'll note that I said .22 pistols. And the reliability I'm referring to is the ignition of the propellant.

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I know exactly what you are referring to which is why I mentioned revolvers.

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B. What the FBI issues to their agents is VERY relevant to the private citizen who carries concealed.

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Wrong. The FBI issues weapons based on criteria that go way beyond civilian self-defense. Apples to peanuts.

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If you read up on the lethal threat incidents faced by FBI agents, they are very often quite similar to that of a private citizen (Tom Givens speaks to this phenomenon in his classes -- FBI agents are the targets of muggers just like you or I might be targeted).

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You assume I haven't and I'll also tell you I've read documents you don't have the credentials to legally access.

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BUT, anyone who assumes that "If you are under threat and you pulled a handgun and the threat stopped immediately and left your vicinity" is gonna work every time needs to read up on sociopaths, psychopaths and drug (meth, bath salts, et al) users.

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Did anyone make that assumption in this thread so far? I haven't nor have I seen anyone else. Corollary to your statement there is that is that anyone who assumes they have to kill or incapacitate a threat every time might just be a sociopath/psychopath in the first place. That's exactly why I used the word continuum.

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Personally I prefer something like a 9mm, that provides a good balance between controllability, reliability, and penetration Go ahead and carry that .22. I certainly don't care. But I'd hate for someone to read your comments and assume that it's a good idea.

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Good for you, I carry a G26 for most of those same reasons. Has absolutely nothing to do with the point I'm making. For some people, carrying a very small .22 Mag revolver is certainly a good idea if the alternative is nothing at all. Ruger LCR in .22 Mag comes to mind. Someone should read my comments with an objective mind which is usually very lacking around here.

I don't have problems with 22 Mag as much as with the NAA 22 mag. Maybe with their large grip that makes the pistol fold up like a pocket knife? I'm a believer that a gun you are comfortable carrying all the time no matter the caliber is much better than a gun you are not comfortable carrying. When I say comfortable I mean comfortable wearing, comfortable with the level of "printing" on your body, comfortable operating and delivering your shot quickly and accurately.

I let my carry permit lapse so I don't carry any more. This was in the late 90's early 2000's and the handgun market was a little different than it is now. I could never find a compact 9mm that I enjoyed carrying dressed normally with a shirt tucked in. I started carrying less and less. When the Keltec P32 first came on the market I grabbed one. It was a gamechanger for me for carrying. Super light not much bigger than my cell phone and slips in my pocket which let me carry it wearing just about anything. I used a back pocket "wallet" carry holster. Dang thing went with my everywhere. For me comfort was my #1 concern when carrying. If you aren't comfortable with it you aren't going to carry it.

My mom carries a Beretta Bobcat in 22lr. She has a really weak grip and that was the first pistol she's found she is comfortable enough using that she actually carries it.