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re: Scientist says he found definitive proof that God exists
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:22 am to Hot Carl
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:22 am to Hot Carl
quote:
It's also why I cringe whenever I see those bumper stickers or get those chain emails saying basically "If you're right, nothing happens, but if you're wrong... Well, enjoy that eternity in hell." Their argument for believing is basically just to cover your bases. That's not true belief. That's not genuine. Because, again, you can't choose what you believe. You either do or you don't.
Very thoughtful post. I was with you up until this last paragraph. A true believer doesn't believe to cover their arse in my opinion. And anyone who says they believe because the alternative is eternity in hell isn't going to be rewarded with Heaven. I believe there is a heaven and a hell. What they are, imo, are beyond anything we can comprehend as humans.
2
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:25 am to jorconalx
quote:
Very thoughtful post. I was with you up until this last paragraph. A true believer doesn't believe to cover their arse in my opinion. And anyone who says they believe because the alternative is eternity in hell isn't going to be rewarded with Heaven. I believe there is a heaven and a hell. What they are, imo, are beyond anything we can comprehend as humans.
If I remember the Book of Revelations correctly, I believe there will be no eternity in hell for Satan and those who are not followers of Christ. I believe it states that hell itself will be discarded. Satan, his demons, and those who never accept Christ will all be thrown into a lake of fire. That is if I'm remembering the Book of Revelations correctly.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:28 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
...those who never accept Christ will all be thrown into a lake of fire.
All of them, without exception?
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:32 am to DestrehanTiger
Adam and Ev is where it starts for me also. I've brought up the following point in many arguments and no one has ever offered an explanation:
You can cry "Genesis is metaphorical" all you want, but the fact is that it wasn't written metaphorically. People try to use that excuse since science has disproven so much of the major stuff in Genesis (please don't play stupid and make me explain this further). First of all, it wouldn't have so many inaccuracies if it were truly the "word of God" and not simply shite made up and written by men. You can not separate the origins/Adam & Eve story from the rest of the Old Testament (or New). Genesis gives an extensive genealogy of all the major Old Testament "characters," and the New Testament completes the family of Jesus tracing back to those same characters. This outright demonstrates that the Old Testament, and specifically Genesis, were intended as literal truth. If not, the entire Old Testament falls apart - straight on through to the New
You can cry "Genesis is metaphorical" all you want, but the fact is that it wasn't written metaphorically. People try to use that excuse since science has disproven so much of the major stuff in Genesis (please don't play stupid and make me explain this further). First of all, it wouldn't have so many inaccuracies if it were truly the "word of God" and not simply shite made up and written by men. You can not separate the origins/Adam & Eve story from the rest of the Old Testament (or New). Genesis gives an extensive genealogy of all the major Old Testament "characters," and the New Testament completes the family of Jesus tracing back to those same characters. This outright demonstrates that the Old Testament, and specifically Genesis, were intended as literal truth. If not, the entire Old Testament falls apart - straight on through to the New
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:34 am to Argonaut
quote:
All of them, without exception?
I do believe that's what it says. Don't ask me the book and chapter but Christ does say "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one enters into the Father but through Me". That's pretty cut and dry with no wiggle room.
Now as far as children go, that gets into children up to a certain age (don't ask me what age) being in a state of grace. This goes back to when Christ's disciples were trying to stop a group of children come to see Christ. According to scripture Christ rebuked His disciples and said "Forbid them not and let them come to me for of such is the Kingdom of God".
There's a good chance I butchered those quotes from Christ and for that I apologize.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:36 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
"You mean all I gotta do is say I accept that Jesus died for my sins and is the son of the one true God and I'm going to heaven? Even if I've been an real a-hole? Sign me up!"
Sola fide is a heresy.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:38 am to Salmon
quote:
if he knew it was going to happen, is that free will?
Look into Molinism aka middle knowledge
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:45 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
I do believe that's what it says. Don't ask me the book and chapter but Christ does say "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one enters into the Father but through Me". That's pretty cut and dry with no wiggle room.
This is just another line drawn for me. If I could ever believe in a creator, it would have to be one independent of these types of concepts.
quote:
Now as far as children go, that gets into children up to a certain age (don't ask me what age) being in a state of grace. This goes back to when Christ's disciples were trying to stop a group of children come to see Christ. According to scripture Christ rebuked His disciples and said "Forbid them not and let them come to me for of such is the Kingdom of God".
That's fine, but what about those without the opportunity to ever "hear the gospel" or those that don't have the capacity to process what they are taught?
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:48 am to jorconalx
quote:
Very thoughtful post. I was with you up until this last paragraph. A true believer doesn't believe to cover their arse in my opinion. And anyone who says they believe because the alternative is eternity in hell isn't going to be rewarded with Heaven. I believe there is a heaven and a hell. What they are, imo, are beyond anything we can comprehend as humans.
I think we're pretty much on the same page here as far as true believing, except for the Hell part. There may be some sort of Hell that we can't comprehend--maybe a state of non-existence or an eternity of being apart from God. I don't think so, but I could certainly be wrong. We're all just guessing at this thing anyway at the end of the day.
I had always been skeptical of Hell to begin with--it just seemed so out of character from the God I heard about on Sunday mornings. But I think I really became convinced after I saw a Rob Bell (?) interview series. Can't remember the name and he may not be taken seriously in the Christian community now, but I think the very 1st bit was he said he got the idea at a museum or something that had a Ghandi display/photograph. And he said to himself "Ghandi is in Hell." And he couldn't comprehend that, nor can I. How many billions of people have walked the Earth since Christ? And God has sent almost all to Hell based on the completely arbitrary fact of where they were born or what societal customs they were indoctrinated with? God is punishing people based on geography?
I can't get down with that. That's not a God I want--or can--believe in. Just makes no sense.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:50 am to Hot Carl
quote:
God is punishing people based on geography?
I can't get down with that. That's not a God I want--or can--believe in. Just makes no sense.
the flip side of this would be
God is rewarding people based on geography?
This post was edited on 6/9/16 at 11:51 am
Posted on 6/9/16 at 12:01 pm to Hot Carl
I definitely understand what your are saying. That's why judgement is His and not ours. I usually avoid religious threads like the plague, but I have seen some thoughtful commentary from both sides.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 12:18 pm to Salmon
quote:
the flip side of this would be God is rewarding people based on geography?
Exactly. And I can't get down with that either. It just doesn't jive with Jesus's teachings. I struggle with a lot of this. I suppose I'd call myself a liberal Christian. The Old Testament is clearly almost all parables and a reflection of the customs and laws of the paternal Jewish customs 3,000 or so years ago. You have to read it in that context. But like someone earlier said "you have to believe all of it or none of it," to me that's a cop out. You know intellectually there was no Noah loading up 2 of every species on the planet. You know there was no super sneaky snake slithering up to Eve trying to get her to eat some fruit. Those stories teach lessons and were a way to make sense of all this craziness we call life. But you can't just throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because you don't believe 1 thing doesn't make the rest of it moot.
Besides, Jesus himself talked in fables and used metaphors. The quote Darth used earlier about Jesus saying he was "the way, the truth, and the light," even that is a metaphor that has to be interpreted. We know that Jesus is not a literal doorway that we have to physically cross to enter Heaven. So, what did he mean? The typical interpretation is that you have to acknowledge him as dying for your sins and being your Lord and Savior(even that can be open to interpretation). But what if he really meant "Don't be assholes. Be kind. Love each other." What if that was the "way" he was speaking of. Surely others have followed this philosophy without "accepting" Christ. I lean towards he's good with that.
Also, I think we get so caught up in Heaven and Hell that we forget most of Jesus's teachings were about how to live life here on earth. Not for the promise of a reward, but for a better life here on earth.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 1:03 pm to TheCaterpillar
quote:
there are adults that actually believe in Adam and Eve?
Like 2 people, one made from a rib and ate a forbidden fruit, started all the billions on Earth?
The way I've read it, is that there were fallen angels that slept with human women after they were specifically told not to, giving birth to giant 'Emim'. So, apparently there were alien-human hybrid-giant babies that were running around having more babies with women.
Don't recall where it says that other humans weren't formed immediately after Adam & Eve (prototypes). Says he rested on the 7th. Not that he abstained from creating other humans for all eternity. Where do you think the Chinese and the Egyptians came from?
Posted on 6/9/16 at 1:05 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
And with my inclusion in this thread...anchor's away, my friends
Yea, you said this like 8 pages back. You really want to believe they have it in for you
Posted on 6/9/16 at 1:29 pm to DestrehanTiger
quote:
This was the thought that started me down to the path to not believing. First, I realized the story had to be a fable
Y'all are provoking me to meditate on this, but think this is last one for now from a philosophical thesis-making view.
The context in what you said would be important. Is the premise that the Bible is true and that there was a war/rebellion in heaven?
The Books are ordered like the Pulp Fiction movie- they aren't linear. Time may flow differently in a heavenly dimension than it does on earth. What if there was a rebellion, and God created man after speaking with repentant captured POW's of the War?
He asks them what caused them to rebel and what could He do differently to create an atmosphere where they wouldn't rebel? They give him answers , and He proceeds to create a simulation with their specifications (unbeknownst to them) to see if they were telling the truth. He puts their consciousness in Adam & Eve's mind.
Then, like letting a grand theft auto convict out on parole, He leaves a bait car outside to see if they've really changed their ways (The Tree of Life).
Of course, like an addict, the temptation is too great, so they fail, and God spends the rest of humanity's lives (up to present) learning to be a Father, while humanity learns how to be children--> evolving into the image of what the Father is trying to teach them to be so they can eventually be as close to equals as possible.
Friends are better than slaves, but once betrayed, it can be difficult to trust again. It takes time to slowly regain that trust. It might take some beings more than a lifetime.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 1:49 pm to AjaxFury
quote:
Yea, you said this like 8 pages back. You really want to believe they have it in for you
LSU Fan
In & out of The Matrix
Member since Sep 2014
3454 posts
I'll just assume you're new here...
For many years, ending several years ago now, we had lively though heated debates about religion that took place almost exclusively on the PoliBoard. These usually started in regards to some evolution story in the news and, of course, devolved form there into a general religion debate. Now...much like any topic on any of the boards, you'd THINK posters could simply decide, "Eh...that's not my interest, so I'll not open it and take part in that discussion." NOPE! what we'd end up getting was poster after poster, almost to a person highly religious who would be LIVID that anyone would be disagreeing with belief. Keep in mind the tone of this board, let along the tone of the PoliBoard...neither board sugar coats ANYTHING and neither did we in those discussions. but...these folks couldn't simply not click those threads and stay the frick out of them allowing those of us, both religious and non-religious alike, to enjoy them. They whined over and over to the admins and board owners, and because generally they agree with that take they "decided" that there would be no religious threads on the board anymore.
This was pointed out to me directly by Chicken himself in an e-mail while I was banned stating directly that he did not want religious threads on his board. I had been banned for pushing this and was gone for almost 6 months.
So...as I type this is a now 15+ page religious thread on this board...does that seem accurate?
Does anyone have it in for me? I fricking doubt it. Do I enjoy making fun of the hypocrisy of saying there are to be none of these discussions on the board while IN one though to be sure.
And keep in mind...it's not that I want that policy to actually be true! I'd LOVE for the board owners to do what many of us had asked them to do years ago, which would be to open a PHILOSOPHY board or some such where religion could be a topic...and to have it be an actual free for all...just like all other boards. But...since I've been banned for it in the past, and all it would take for this thread to catch an anchor and for folks to be shown the door would be enough atheists or nonbelievers show up and start being "rude" (or as it's normally called on the OT, just normal behavior) I'd appreciate an acknowledgement that generally speaking only one type of religious thread is allowed...the positive towards religion type.
So call me whatever you want, but as a guy that was actually banned for posting in threads like this and after being told they were forbidden entirely on this board, it's hard for me to not poke at the absurdity of that...
Posted on 6/9/16 at 2:33 pm to GeauxTigerTM
I have proof God is real. Holy Spirit speaks to me often. Very interesting OP
Posted on 6/9/16 at 2:48 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
GeauxTigerTM
I assume what's kept this thread alive and no one banned is its gone for page after page with genuine civil back and forth discussion from people on both sides of the issue.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 2:50 pm to GeauxTigerTM
I got banned too one time for calling out LA in a religion thread he started.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 2:56 pm to HeadCoach
quote:
I have proof God is real. Holy Spirit speaks to me often.
Which god? Show the rest of the world this proof. Record the Holy Spirit and put it on YouTube. If you can convince me that god is real, then you will have no problem convincing the rest of the world. I want definitive proof. Without a shadow of a doubt. None of this blind faith, you must believe in order to feel shite either. Hard evidence based on facts. Ready and Go!!
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