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re: Net Neutrality -- What You Need To Know
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:27 pm to Moustache
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:27 pm to Moustache
quote:
Say I want to open a home improvement store, small business in my hometown to compete with Lowe's or Home Depot. Wouldn't one of them just pay extra to have their website be great, while mine loads 1995 AOL style? Small business won't compete without internet these days. That's a fact.
You think people wont buy because a website is slow??? Out of everything here that is the dumbest thing ever. People look for a product at a good price and care zilch about website speed outside of computer obsessed reddit kids.
5
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:34 pm to Adam Banks
Sorry, but let's see how your theory works when mom & pop's website takes like 5 minutes to load and Home Depot takes 3 seconds.
My issue is the idiotic assumption that these big monopolies will act in the consumer's interest. As Richard Branson is fond of saying... "corporations do not like or want capitalism, quite the opposite."
My issue is the idiotic assumption that these big monopolies will act in the consumer's interest. As Richard Branson is fond of saying... "corporations do not like or want capitalism, quite the opposite."
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:34 pm to Adam Banks
quote:
You think people wont buy because a website is slow??? Out of everything here that is the dumbest thing ever. People look for a product at a good price and care zilch about website speed outside of computer obsessed reddit kids.
You're insane if you don't think convenience and customer service play a role in where consumers go.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:34 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
well if they're corporate sponsored and allow superior access to sites associated with sponsors, that would violate N/N
Wait, exactly how, in your mind, would these cheap internet plans work? I don't think you have fleshed out the idea very well, and you haven't thought about the logical and economical hiccups.
quote:quote:if it gives Comcast an advantage over Turner or Cox or SuddenLink then that is teh definition of competitive
Comcast contracting with Netflix to the detriment of other services is anti-competitive, no doubt about it.
You can't just look at one side of the deal and call it competition, when the other side of the deal is blatantly anti-competitive. Especially not when the competitive side of the deal doesn't even compete in the same markets. quote:
companies do what consumers demand of them
Let me guess, consumers demand with their wallets, right? Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:34 pm to Adam Banks
quote:
You think people wont buy because a website is slow??? Out of everything here that is the dumbest thing ever. People look for a product at a good price and care zilch about website speed outside of computer obsessed reddit kids.
That's BS. If one site is a breeze to use, with all kinds of features, and another site takes 30 seconds to load one picture of the item, people are going to use the faster site.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:39 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Wait, exactly how, in your mind, would these cheap internet plans work?
subsidized by companies that basically steer consumers to their sites (instead of their competition)
quote:
Let me guess, consumers demand with their wallets, right?
yes
why can't we wait and see how consumers react to what ISPs do, and make a decision?
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:39 pm to Adam Banks
quote:
You think people wont buy because a website is slow??? Out of everything here that is the dumbest thing ever. People look for a product at a good price and care zilch about website speed outside of computer obsessed reddit kids.
Numerous studies have been conducted on this exact topic, and you would be very surprised how much website speed impacts revenue. Amazon says their revenue increases 1% for every 100ms improvement in website load speed. Walmart says the same. Yahoo increased traffic 9% with a 400ms improvement. An average small site loses about 7% of sales per 1 second load time.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:41 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Oh, it will work itself out? How far into the future are you looking here, and why can you project that far out but I can't?
it may hurt for a bit, but long-term it will work itself out
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:42 pm to Adam Banks
quote:
You think people wont buy because a website is slow??? Out of everything here that is the dumbest thing ever. People look for a product at a good price and care zilch about website speed outside of computer obsessed reddit kids.
You pull up in your car in front of two hardware stores. It's a bright, sunny day, with relatively low humidity.
On your left is the local "mom and pop" store. You decide to support the local business, and start walking in the direction of the store. As you get closer to the entrance, however, you discover a line of people waiting outside the store. The store owners only allow a certain amount of people to be present in the store at a given time, hence the line.
As you stand in the queue, you look across the block at the national chain hardware store and notice no line - people are walking in and out as they please. You know for a fact that the national chain charges 50 cents more for the product you're looking for, but the line you're in hasn't moved for almost 10 minutes, and you could have been in and out and on your way if you had gone into the chain store.
What do you honestly think most people would decide to do in this situation - continue to wait in line, or leave the line and get what they need at the store without the line?
This post was edited on 5/19/14 at 4:43 pm
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:46 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Oh, it will work itself out?
the free market typically does
quote:
How far into the future are you looking here, and why can you project that far out but I can't?
i said this may be a rare exception, but we can't make that assessment without data. my argument is one requiring data
the free market works itself out (which means consumers benefit more and more), except for some outlier scenarios (Which are typically due to government interference). this may be an outlier scenario. you don't know if it is, and neither do it. we can't assess that until we see what happens
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:quote:based on what, exactly? your preferences? your fears?
But, while it certainly would solve some issues with bandwidth constraints, it is absolutely the wrong way to go about it.
you're making a very opinionated and subjective statement as a factual statement
That statement is not based on preferences or fears. It is based on a very simple analysis of how a business should react in a given scenario. A business that provides a very necessary service, in a market with little to zero competition, and that has the legal power to regulate which internet companies can compete with its own products will do exactly that. If you think that is "right" or just, then I don't know what to tell you.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i'd rather wait to see what happens and have a discussion with data than have an emotional-based argument that boils down to (1) worst case scenario or (2) N/N status quo
So what is the problem with the N/N status quo?
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:49 pm to Korkstand
quote:
If an ISP feels the need to put caps and charge for overage, that's fine. It is a total rip-off for consumers, but it's still fine. If you feel that you are getting ripped off because others are getting more use out of their bandwidth than you are, then take it up with your ISP for not offering a level of service at a price you like, or for not charging heavy users more for their service. They can even go to metered billing, which is also fine as far as net neutrality is concerned (though there are a lot of other problems with metered internet billing).
The reality is the problem ISPs are trying to solve isn't really even an issue caused by power users. ISPs have to build for peak usage. 5-10pm at night is when usage is at the peak. Even if you remove the power users from this, you are still going to have this peak usage. And I doubt it changes that much.
Its a load of horesehit that SFP is eating up. He seems pretty smart, but isn't applying his intelligence to this.
We are getting conned. Net neutrality does one thing and one thing only, give telcos the ability to distinguish internet traffic, and its really for one reason to blackmail businesses to give them MORE money. Consumers probably won't have to pony up for a few years but businesses will have to pay on day 1.
the only thing that will save us is how incompetent the big telcos are at doing stuff. They really can't get anything right, and even when they do something it can be bypassed. I suspect I will be able to get around any sort of traffic allocation they set up. But I have a masters in comp sci, I am not the majority.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:52 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the free market typically does
there is no free market here. Its almost a monopoly in some markets, in others its an ogilopoly. Either way, there is very little competition. There will be no alternative. If an ISP decides well you know what, all traffic we don't approve of will be at 56.6kbps, consumers will be arse raped.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:53 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:That's what I thought. I think if you crunch the numbers on how much it would cost to subsidize internet access to poor people, you might see that this is a losing proposition.
subsidized by companies that basically steer consumers to their sites (instead of their competition)
quote:If you hadn't noticed, consumers are reacting right now, and that's why we are debating this every day.
why can't we wait and see how consumers react to what ISPs do, and make a decision?
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:54 pm to Cap Crunch
quote:
So what is the problem with the N/N status quo?
not that much, but i would be interested to see what a free market could/would do
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:56 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
the only thing that will save us is how incompetent the big telcos are at doing stuff. They really can't get anything right, and even when they do something it can be bypassed. I suspect I will be able to get around any sort of traffic allocation they set up.
you see i agree they are incompetent and terrible service providers for consumers. i want them to be removed from government protection
i truly believe that we may see some crazy developments, even with the barriers to entry. the old telecom companies may end up behind, and consumers may end up way ahead. it's theoretically possible
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:56 pm to Cs
quote:
On your left is the local "mom and pop" store. You decide to support the local business, and start walking in the direction of the store. As you get closer to the entrance, however, you discover a line of people waiting outside the store. The store owners only allow a certain amount of people to be present in the store at a given time, hence the line.
How many "mom and pop" stores do huge amounts of online business?
quote:
What do you honestly think most people would decide to do in this situation - continue to wait in line, or leave the line and get what they need at the store without the line?
If they have large amounts of online traffic then it would be prudent to allow higher amounts of bandwith.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:57 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
Its almost a monopoly in some markets
let's just be clear. that is due to government and i want to combat this very problem
quote:
If an ISP decides well you know what, all traffic we don't approve of will be at 56.6kbps, consumers will be arse raped.
so will the company, though
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:58 pm to Korkstand
quote:
If you hadn't noticed, consumers are reacting right now, and that's why we are debating this every day.
we're debating government policy, not seeing what consumers in the non-N/N market choose
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