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re: Another history thread: How did we get involved in the Vietnam War?
Posted on 3/20/15 at 3:31 pm to Teufelhunden
Posted on 3/20/15 at 3:31 pm to Teufelhunden
Dien Bien Phu fell in 1954.
0
Posted on 3/20/15 at 3:33 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
THEN we won the war anyway (with Nixon as POTUS).
What a glorious victory it was. Peace with honor as we withdraw from the American embassy in Saigon. Too bad we didn't learn any lessons from it.
This post was edited on 3/20/15 at 3:35 pm
Posted on 3/20/15 at 3:37 pm to Layabout
Posted on 3/20/15 at 3:39 pm to Layabout
quote:
What a glorious victory it was.
Militarily, we kicked the shite out of them. IIRC we didnt lose but 1 or 2 battles, if any.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 3:58 pm to Wishnitwas1998
Truman broke FDR's promise to Ho Chi Minh and allow French to try to reestablish colonial control for Michelin rubber sources.
French frick up at Dien Ben Phu.
Cold War. Domino theory.
French frick up at Dien Ben Phu.
Cold War. Domino theory.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:01 pm to Layabout
quote:
Peace with honor as we withdraw from the American embassy in Saigon.
That only happened because congress refused to allow the President of the United States enforce an already won victory by backing our South Vietnam allies.
Just as now, an alliance with the United State in 1975 was worthless.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:05 pm to Wishnitwas1998
Read WEB Griffin's Brotherhood of War series. It lays it out very well and is a fun read.
We were standing against Communism, China went Red, the French were trying to hold on in Indochina and we start playing with our toys, the SF advisors. It all started in WWII with the beginnings of SF and then in Greece and then we fought the Communists in Korea. Africa and India got their freedom from Western colonial powers, Israel was fighting the Arabs, the Suez was in contention, we backed the Shah in Iran, oil was flowing, America was building and driving and expanding cities and suburbs and needed oil and the USSR was threatening Europe and the ME. The idea was that if French Indochina fell to the Communists, then there would be a Domino Effect that would go all the way to India and Communism would sweep through Africa and the ME, isolating the US and cutting us off from oil and a lot of other stuff.
So, the strategy was to stop Communism everywhere. Much of the resistance to the Civil Rights Movement in America was because many establishment whites feared that it was a plot by Communists to destabilize America by appealing to minority angst. Communism was godless, so to oppose the CRM was to side with God against Communism. That was part of it - that and racism.
Kennedy was shot in 1963 and the fear that it was the Communists. Oswald had defected to Russia and was in league with Cuba. We just have the 13 days of the Cuban missile crisis. We forget how close Cuba and the US were before Castro. Losing Cuba was HUGE and in light of Communist gains around the world, it stoked fears.
Russia was winning the space race, kids had atomic drills where they hid under their desks, the U2 had been shot down, and people were afraid. Plus, you had Curtis LeMay and the Military Industrial Complex and the Hawks in Washington pushing for an aggressive foreign policy against Communism around the world.
Britain and France losing their empires that they had held for 200 years affected the psyche of the West greatly. To see many of those colonies go Communist stoked fears even more.
Vietnam was a stupid war, but when you look at the overall mindset of the time, it makes sense. America was in a "never again" mindset and they didn't want to fight another World War. So, smaller wars made more sense.
We were standing against Communism, China went Red, the French were trying to hold on in Indochina and we start playing with our toys, the SF advisors. It all started in WWII with the beginnings of SF and then in Greece and then we fought the Communists in Korea. Africa and India got their freedom from Western colonial powers, Israel was fighting the Arabs, the Suez was in contention, we backed the Shah in Iran, oil was flowing, America was building and driving and expanding cities and suburbs and needed oil and the USSR was threatening Europe and the ME. The idea was that if French Indochina fell to the Communists, then there would be a Domino Effect that would go all the way to India and Communism would sweep through Africa and the ME, isolating the US and cutting us off from oil and a lot of other stuff.
So, the strategy was to stop Communism everywhere. Much of the resistance to the Civil Rights Movement in America was because many establishment whites feared that it was a plot by Communists to destabilize America by appealing to minority angst. Communism was godless, so to oppose the CRM was to side with God against Communism. That was part of it - that and racism.
Kennedy was shot in 1963 and the fear that it was the Communists. Oswald had defected to Russia and was in league with Cuba. We just have the 13 days of the Cuban missile crisis. We forget how close Cuba and the US were before Castro. Losing Cuba was HUGE and in light of Communist gains around the world, it stoked fears.
Russia was winning the space race, kids had atomic drills where they hid under their desks, the U2 had been shot down, and people were afraid. Plus, you had Curtis LeMay and the Military Industrial Complex and the Hawks in Washington pushing for an aggressive foreign policy against Communism around the world.
Britain and France losing their empires that they had held for 200 years affected the psyche of the West greatly. To see many of those colonies go Communist stoked fears even more.
Vietnam was a stupid war, but when you look at the overall mindset of the time, it makes sense. America was in a "never again" mindset and they didn't want to fight another World War. So, smaller wars made more sense.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:09 pm to Wishnitwas1998
You know what is interesting that I learned not 3-4 weeks ago? Apparently FDR had barred France from returning to Indochina (which of course we did have the economic power to do that considering it was right after WW2), but Truman was okay with it because we needed French support for the Marshall Plan and NATO. The U.S. was by no means eager to see anyone in Europe try to reclaim its colonies, but we got sucked in initially and then it just grew and grew (in the most basic terms)
eta: Which not I see was even more basically put a few post up.
I know history is full of "What ifs" and there can be no real answer to them, but when I learned about FDR barring France from getting back into Asia I couldn't help but think man... "what if he had lived just a little bit longer"
eta: Which not I see was even more basically put a few post up.
I know history is full of "What ifs" and there can be no real answer to them, but when I learned about FDR barring France from getting back into Asia I couldn't help but think man... "what if he had lived just a little bit longer"
This post was edited on 3/20/15 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:13 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
That only happened because congress refused to allow the President of the United States enforce an already won victory by backing our South Vietnam allies.
Our South Vietnamese allies were corrupt, demoralized and totally ineffective. They would have caved regardless, just like the Iraqis.
This post was edited on 3/20/15 at 4:14 pm
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:18 pm to Wishnitwas1998
Yes, Vietnam was a French colony.
2 asides - We wouldn't have been nearly as heavily involved in it had JFK not been assassinated.
The draft made it a lot worse
2 asides - We wouldn't have been nearly as heavily involved in it had JFK not been assassinated.
The draft made it a lot worse
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:23 pm to AlaTiger
Pretty damn good summary.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:24 pm to brass2mouth
quote:
Militarily, we kicked the shite out of them. IIRC we didnt lose but 1 or 2 battles, if any.
The TET Offensive was actually a giant failure for the NVA despite what many people think.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:29 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
The TET Offensive was actually a giant failure for the NVA despite what many people think.
A tactical defeat for the Vietcong, but a strategic victory. The Tet Offensive was shown on every television in America, and every home saw bodies of dead Americans everywhere.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:30 pm to USMCTiger03
Thanks. Studying the OSS during WWII and Wild Bill Donovan and the beginnings of SF along with the CIA gives insight into how we got entangled in Vietnam in the 50's and how Kennedy upped the ante in his administration. His political philosophy was pragmatism and he was a technocrat. So, he believed that he could manage these things with intelligence and small SF units. I think that his time as a PT boat commander probably influenced him.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:34 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
quote:
Militarily, we kicked the shite out of them. IIRC we didnt lose but 1 or 2 battles, if any.
The TET Offensive was actually a giant failure for the NVA despite what many people think.
Thr NVA and VC suffered one of the most complete defeats of any attacking force in the history of warfare. Tet left the NVA totally incapable of offensive operations for years and totally destroyed the VC as an effective combat force.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:38 pm to AlaTiger
Bravo,
AlaTiger
AlaTiger
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:40 pm to HarryBalzack
quote:
though McNamara is sometimes self serving
now there's an understatement.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:46 pm to Wishnitwas1998
A total fear of communism at that time and the progress that had been made regarding expansion and Russia's recent advances in space race etc.
Our never ending stupidity when it comes to bailing the French out of everything. After propping up a pro French and American puppet government it went to shite and the were going to lose their control over commercial interests
Tactically not letting our commanders that know what they are doing utilize a winning strategy. Search and destroy and then give it up (any territory) wasn't going to get it and they knew from about day 2 they had to go into Cambodia and Laos to stop the logistics on Ho Chi Min trail.
Vietnamization was a total catastrophe, they were never going to be trained enough and have the fortitude to protect their own country and fight against other Vietnamese. These are rice farmers trying to build and army.
Our never ending stupidity when it comes to bailing the French out of everything. After propping up a pro French and American puppet government it went to shite and the were going to lose their control over commercial interests
Tactically not letting our commanders that know what they are doing utilize a winning strategy. Search and destroy and then give it up (any territory) wasn't going to get it and they knew from about day 2 they had to go into Cambodia and Laos to stop the logistics on Ho Chi Min trail.
Vietnamization was a total catastrophe, they were never going to be trained enough and have the fortitude to protect their own country and fight against other Vietnamese. These are rice farmers trying to build and army.
This post was edited on 3/20/15 at 4:47 pm
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:47 pm to Layabout
quote:
quote: THEN we won the war anyway (with Nixon as POTUS). What a glorious victory it was. Peace with honor as we withdraw from the American embassy in Saigon. Too bad we didn't learn any lessons from it.
We did win the war. The Vitnam War ended in 1973 when the North signed The Treaty of Paris ending the war. Now TWO YEARS after the end of the war when the Soviets had rebuilt the NVA while the liberal progressive Democrats who controlled Congress had Cut of all aid to South Virtnam (despite the US being obligated by treaty to help them), the North started ANOTHER WAR and overran the South.
That's right. We won the Vietnam war only to have the Democrats throw that victory away... Much as they would do in a later war, this time in the Middle East.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 4:52 pm to Scream4LSU
quote:
Vietnamization was a total catastrophe, they were never going to be trained enough and have the fortitude to protect their own country and fight against other Vietnamese. These are rice farmers trying to build and army.
That's another one of the biggest lies and myths of the Vietnam War. Case in point was the South's victory in the 1972 Easter Offensive. When thd Treaty of Paris was signed in 1973, ending the Vietnam War, one of the main reasons the Notth gave up was they saw the South was equipped, trained, and quite capable of defeating the NVA in the field.
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