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re: American Civil War Animated Maps
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:22 pm to RollTide1987
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:22 pm to RollTide1987
I'll gladly take this opportunity to share a pic of the flag of our southern heritage:
1
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:25 pm to NYCAuburn
quote:
There are no maybes here.
Except that there were. Are you ignoring Maryland because you missed that part of my comment or because it is incredibly damaging to your underlying argument.
quote:
At least for all the states who were willing to document their causes of succession.
I know that's what they said. The subtle and complex portion of it - slavery was a fairly polarizing issue North and South - after the EP, some of the upper Midwestern units were threatening to desert because they did not want to be perceived as fighting to end slavery. On the other hand, as you suggest, the founding documents of the Confederacy certainly express slavery as a significant cause for secession - but, again that complexity - the ultimate issue from the South's perspective was the right to determine the issue for themselves, rather than have it dictated by an increasingly aggressive anti-slavery movement in the North.
This post was edited on 9/22/15 at 3:27 pm
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:26 pm to ballscaster
quote:
the flag of our southern heritage
'Murica. frick yeah!
(It was good while it lasted.
)Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:31 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Ergo, slavery was not the causus belli of the Civil War (although I admit it was a significant issue, perhaps the most significant issue of disagreement leading up to the conflict itself).
You can ruminate as much as you want on the other issues that could have possibly led to the Civil War, but slavery was and will always be the catalyst reason. There is no other issue that played as big of a part in the secession of southern states as slavery did. To denounce this as being the case is just you being disingenuous.
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:34 pm to Maverick01
quote:
You can ruminate as much as you want on the other issues that could have possibly led to the Civil War, but slavery was and will always be the catalyst reason. There is no other issue that played as big of a part in the secession of southern states as slavery did. To denounce this as being the case is just you being disingenuous.
I like how Ace is actually giving historically relevant information, and you just say the same things over and over
ETA: Troll away though
This post was edited on 9/22/15 at 3:35 pm
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:36 pm to Maverick01
quote:
To denounce this as being the case is just you being disingenuous.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I can just as easily say the same thing about your assertion that strongly implied the war was about slavery, period.
It was not. To suggest such is to argue a simplistic, unsupportable cliche.
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:37 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Except that there were. Are you ignoring Maryland because you missed that part of my comment or because it is incredibly damaging to your underlying argument.
I am not ignoring anything. It has been plainly stated that the reasons for succession were for slavery. Slavery was the catalyst for the entire thing. other aspects were of minor consequence as to what actually was the cause
quote:
the ultimate issue from the South's perspective was the right to determine the issue for themselves, rather than have it dictated by an increasingly aggressive anti-slavery movement in the North.
Not really, they were using these excuses as to why they could/should keep slavery. Again, slavery was the initial catalyst. The issues they wanted to have the authority to set their own laws for, were about slavery.
You can say there were underlying issues for the civil war, but they are minor in comparison to the actual cause
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:37 pm to RollTide1987
Damn, that's cool as hell. Thanks for posting. 
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:41 pm to Maverick01
quote:
How childish. You don't like my opinion, so you make a disparaging comment about my intellect. If you have a stance on the issue of slavery and the Civil War then feel free to share it, but objecting to my views by being patronizing makes you look small and immature.
You shouldn't be on the OT if you are thin skinned. My comment is based on the conclusion that your opinion is simplistic with an inability to comprehend multi-faceted issues (i.e., on par with someone who spends too much time with a coloring book).
Slavery was not the cause for the Civil War. If it was, why did it take Abraham Lincoln so long to make the Emancipation Proclamation and why did the proclamation not free the slaves in the states which remained in the Union or in areas in the South which were under Union control? Slaves in New Orleans remained slaves after the Emancipation Proclamation.
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:41 pm to NYCAuburn
quote:
but they are minor in comparison to the actual cause
Correct - the actual cause of the war was a disagreement between the federal government and the confederate states on whether or not individual states (or groups of states) had the right under the constitution to secede, period.
Perhaps it happened at the time because of a fear of what Lincoln might do regarding slavery. Perhaps the reason the sides were at such an impassee was over the emotional pull (of both sides) over the issue.
But slavery CANNOT be supported as the causus belli of the war itself, simply because Maryland stands in sharp rebuttal to that, among other things.
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:45 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
the actual cause of the war was a disagreement between the federal government and the confederate states on whether or not individual states (or groups of states) had the right under the constitution to secede, period.
Yes like I stated initially, the cause of the war was succession, the cause of succession was slavery.
Hell read Mississippi's first full paragraph on their declaration of causes
quote:
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.
quote:
But slavery CANNOT be supported as the causus belli of the war itself, simply because Maryland stands in sharp rebuttal to that
This does not disprove a thing
This post was edited on 9/22/15 at 3:46 pm
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:49 pm to Maverick01
Haha, there was nothing complex about it. The South wanted to continue the institution of slavery because it was profitable. The forced servitude of blacks was the linchpin that held the fabric of the South's economy together. Over 200 years of free labor. It seems pretty cut and dry to me 
:wah: :wah: :wah: :wah:
:wah: :wah: :wah: :wah:Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:50 pm to Ace Midnight
Slavery was the central issue of the civil war.
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:50 pm to stampman
quote:
Over 200 years of free labor.
food and housing are free?
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:55 pm to Topwater Trout
quote:
food and housing are free?
:rimshot:
This post was edited on 9/22/15 at 3:56 pm
Posted on 9/22/15 at 3:55 pm to gaetti15
quote:
I like how Ace is actually giving historically relevant information, and you just say the same things over and over ETA: Troll away though
He's not giving historically relevant anything. He's spinning the facts to make it seem like the direct cause for the Civil War is an outpour of different reasons; he's muddling everything to diminish how big of a role slavery played in the South. I would think by now sources wouldn't have to be cited for this topic. This is common sense. Yes, there were other reasons, but they all fell under the umbrella of slavery or could be traced back to slavery lol.
Posted on 9/22/15 at 4:03 pm to NYCAuburn
quote:
This does not disprove a thing
It disproves the causus belli was was slavery. Otherwise, the first thing done in Maryland would have been emancipation. In fact, slaves in Maryland were some of the last to be legally freed, when Maryland's constitution was amended in 1864.
There would not have been a significant movement to offer emancipation in exchange for military service to slaves by the Confederacy (although a plan was never enacted in any significant way, the fact that such discussions were underway betrays the complexity of that peculiar institution).
And, as I mentioned before, there would not have been a significant risk of mutiny of Northern regiments upon issuance of the EP, if the war was all about slavery.
Posted on 9/22/15 at 4:05 pm to gaetti15
quote:
food and housing are free?
Most slave quarters were just wooden shacks with dirt floors. Many were malnourished, and they were usually fed scraps, sometimes only once a day. Not to mention the horrible conditions of enslavement they endured. Constant physical and psychological abuse. Oh, but thanks for the "lodging" and "food" bro.
Posted on 9/22/15 at 4:08 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
It disproves the causus belli was was slavery
not in the slightest
You have already stated that succession caused the war(Which I stated as well)
If you believe this, then what were the causes of succession? Well the states themselves stated this in their declarations of causes. And those causes were the issue of slavery
Posted on 9/22/15 at 4:12 pm to stampman
quote:
The forced servitude of blacks was the linchpin that held the fabric of the South's economy together.
It held the economy of the NATION together, not just the South (although the South leaned heavily upon it). Where do you think all that cotton came from to feed the textile mills of Boston, NYC and Philly? Where do you think all that tariff revenue came from to fill the U.S. treasury's coffers? No one was willing to forge a glide path and gentle landing from slavery, so war was the only other option to the status quo.
And, to be fair, beyond the abject moral depravity of the entire deal, the South was beset by a sloth that accompanied the institution and the cotton trade, at large. It funded large homes and holdings for a select few, and forced the economy into a single dimension that did few any good. Heck, it was almost stupid to grow anything other than cotton or sugar on large farms in the South, and both relied heavily upon slave labor. And the landless white farmer had more in common with the agricultural slave than he did the rich planter (and he was more likely to go off to fight the Yankees in Virginia and Tennessee, BTW, than did the rich planter), with the exception of being legally free.
A popular example is Republican sugar planter Antoine Dubuclet - he was not particularly fond of slavery, but had a large slaveholding in Iberville Parish. His wealth and his livelihood was intertwined with slavery (as was that of the entire country). He was one of the richest men in Louisiana and held a number of statewise posts after the war, during Reconstruction. Why can I say, confidently that he was neither a fan of slavery nor a white supremacist/racist? You've probably guessed it, but Dubuclet was black himself.
This post was edited on 9/22/15 at 4:20 pm
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