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FA bust signings and bad extensions

Posted on 10/1/15 at 8:38 am
Posted by Zoombop
Westbank
Member since Feb 2013
987 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 8:38 am
I posted this in another thread, but I thought it deserved some more attention because I haven't really seen anyone talk much about it.

People seem willing to give Mickey Loomis a pass for drafting poorly even though he's in charge of the scouting and player personnel departments. He's not a talent evaluator himself, but as a GM he has to know if his guys are getting the job done and they hadn't been. Unfortunately for the Saints, the mass scouting department firings happened about 4 years too late.

So if he's not a talent guy, he's been labeled as a money guy. A "cap genius" whose talents have created the term "Loomising" that has gone on to mean myriad things, good and bad. I argue that his genius is... well, not genius. If he doesn't have a future HoF QB on his team to make up for across the board talent deficiencies, Loomis is former Jets GM John Idzik - a cap guy who sucks at managing a salary cap.

The aura around Payton and Loomis has really worn off in my opinion. I defended Loomis for a long time because even though common knowledge said Saints were in "salary cap hell," he always found a way to sign big free agents to shock the world and somehow stay under. Now, I'm on a completely different end of the spectrum.

Since I've had more time to look objectively at his work post-2009 it's been really shocking. The drafting is the biggest and most obvious failure and that falls on him and Payton, but outside of that he hasn't ever taken a balanced approach to free agency and extending his own players. For example, look at the biggest additions from FA class of 2012...

Curtis Lofton - 5 yrs/$27.5 mil
Ben Grubbs - 5 yrs/$36 mil
Brodrick Bunkley - 5 yrs/$25 mil
David Hawthorne - 5 yrs/$19 mil

What's amazing is these guys are taking up just about $17 million in cap space THIS YEAR. Three aren't on the team any longer and Hawthorne has only been starting because of Ellerbe's injury. It's one thing to fail in a draft class where you miss one a handful of cheap, mostly unknown players, but it's an entirely different thing to fail in a free agent class where the players are proven commodities that you're investing over $100 million in over the next five years.

Then let's look at his recent player contract extensions...

Jimmy Graham - 4 yrs/$40 mil ($20.9 mil guaranteed)
Junior Galette - 4 yrs/$41.5 mil ($23 mil guaranteed)
Zach Strief - 5 yrs/$20 mil (age 31 at signing)

Jimmy and Junior have already been discussed at length. I have nothing to add there. It's clear why they were bad deals. Strief on the other hand is a little different. He is/was (you decide) a good player, but you don't commit $20 million over five years to a guy who is already 31, especially when the next year you draft his replacement in the first round. It's almost as foolish as dumping a bunch of money into your already stable and inexpensive running back corps! Oh wait...

It's pretty clear that Benson has lost his marbles because if he knew what the hell was going on, he would have fired Mickey Loomis by now.

tl;dr version

Loomis has thrown around tons of cash for players that are not on the team anymore. Somehow he gets a pass for drafting poorly AND mismanaging free agent signings where he has shown almost no discipline. That is a bunch of BS.
Posted by Peliclown
Member since Nov 2013
2480 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 8:43 am to
Didn't read and I disagree
Posted by BayouFann
CenLa
Member since Jun 2012
6868 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 8:47 am to
Posted by Dead End
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2013
21237 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 8:49 am to
Agreed. Support.
Posted by Throbinhood
Southern LA
Member since Sep 2013
819 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 8:51 am to
quote:

he gets a pass for drafting poorly AND mismanaging free agent signings


The fact that you think Loomis is the final saw so in talent evaluations doesn't look good on your part.
People need to understand he is a money guy. He has made some questionable money decisions, absolutley. Loomis is not a talent evaluator. I have never once seen anywhere that Loomis evaluates talent in the draft or free agents. It is also not his fault if the saints coaching staff gets rid of a player that he had under contract for 2-3 more seasons. I think bringing on Jeff Ireland will help in this organizations evaluation of talent moving forward.
Posted by Breesus
House of the Rising Sun
Member since Jan 2010
66982 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 8:56 am to
quote:

it deserved some more attention because I haven't really seen anyone talk much about it.


Have you clicked on any threads on this board this season?
Posted by Zoombop
Westbank
Member since Feb 2013
987 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 8:57 am to
quote:

Have you clicked on any threads on this board this season?



I'm very selective
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
64209 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 9:03 am to
quote:

Loomis has thrown around tons of cash for players (because its the players CSP and staff want) that are not on the team anymore. Somehow he gets a pass for drafting poorly(I blame Loomis for the scouting department but doubt he makes the picks) AND mismanaging free agent signings(I doubt he picks the players just gets the contracts done ) where he has shown almost no discipline. That is a bunch of BS.


Despite what Lester thinks I don't give Loomis a pass. I blame the entire org top down. And as someone wisely pointed out we are a org without a owner/leader at the top.

So many posters hope to point to one person and say "there it is...there is the problem remove it" and our situation is fixed. The more difficult reality is that its not just one person or one thing and we don't have a owner to tell us a damn thing about the state of the Saints and the direction he is taking it.
Posted by Zoombop
Westbank
Member since Feb 2013
987 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 9:06 am to
I'm not giving Payton a pass. Certainly his inability to hire better coaches and get the most out of players has been a huge detriment. I just didn't want to write a novel in my thread post.

Ultimately, it's an entire organizational failure that falls not on any one person's shoulders, but that does not free anyone within from criticism.
Posted by Patrick O Rly
y u do dis?
Member since Aug 2011
41187 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 9:11 am to
quote:

The fact that you think Loomis is the final saw so in talent evaluations doesn't look good on your part.
People need to understand he is a money guy. He has made some questionable money decisions, absolutley. Loomis is not a talent evaluator.


Unless it's just a bold face lie, it's been stated that Loomis has the final word on draft decisions and free agent signings. Obviously he's getting a lot of input from the coaching staff and scouting department, and he looks like he got better input this year for the draft.

You can probably deemed Loomis a poor talent evaluator of talent evaluators.
Posted by Throbinhood
Southern LA
Member since Sep 2013
819 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 9:21 am to
I've read it as he has the final word as for as if we can get a free agent to fit in the cap. Like make it work. He has no athletic background besides basketball. I think the Saints have had a string of poor talent evaluators in the organization, from college to ofree agent evaluations. But to put the blame one 1 guy is crazy. Yes people must be held accountable but I don't think it starts with Loomis from a talent stand point.
From a financial and cap stand point, that is a different story.
Posted by blueboxer1119
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2013
7975 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 9:28 am to
The Strief deal I can defend. Until recently he was playing well. If you remember, we didn't sign him after free agency had been going on for a while. That deal isn't bad.

The JG deal wasn't awful had we not traded him 1 year into it. We payed through the nose for 1 year. Terrible decision.

I can't defend Junior, Lofton, Hawthorne, etc. Those are absolute garbage deals. Pathetic.

Worst of all is this piece of garbage Byrd. Get him out of here ASAP. Cut bait and be done.
He can eat a big bag of dicks.
Posted by SenatorJones
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2013
254 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 9:52 am to
I said at the time (not here online but to my neighbors in the terrace) that the extensions to Junior, Graham and Strief almost sounded to me like Loomis was actually reading the comments from the most moronic posters on nola.com and listening to the most drunken bumpkin callers into Deke and Bobby. I mean, if you were listening to low information Saints fans in the back back BACK rows of the terrace, then JOONYAH was a monsta, and JIMMEH had da DUNK, and oh yeah, ZACH STRIEF he was on da SOOPA BOWL TEAM and he had all doze Noo Awlins Hamburga N' Seafood commercials....

I know it wasn't REALLY that, but we used to joke about it in our section....it sure felt like he suddenly slugged down about ten Doam Foams from the terrace and signed the three most moronic "fan favorites" to big deals.
Posted by Lester Earl
Member since Nov 2003
278184 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 10:10 am to
quote:

Have you clicked on any threads on this board the past 6 seasons?

Posted by Hoodoo Man
Sunshine Pumping most days.
Member since Oct 2011
31637 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 10:17 am to
quote:

The Strief deal I can defend. Until recently he was playing well.
I love Strief.

But that contract is way, way too long.
Posted by htran90
BC
Member since Dec 2012
30089 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 10:22 am to
3 years would have been smarter. An issue with these contracts are that they are a year or two too long. We can't have those and still win if those guys aren't productive.
Posted by Indfanfromcol
LSU
Member since Jan 2011
14723 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 10:22 am to
JG extension is only bad because y'all traded him. That was a good deal for a guy who puts up top 15 WR numbers and possibly the best red zone target in the league.
Posted by Hoodoo Man
Sunshine Pumping most days.
Member since Oct 2011
31637 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 10:24 am to
quote:

JG extension is only bad because y'all traded him.
I don't consider the JG trade bad.
Posted by partywiththelombardi
Member since May 2012
11584 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 10:31 am to
quote:

JG extension


Junior received the extension. Jimmy was resigned.

quote:

y'all traded him


We did not trade Junior...he was outright cut.

Jimmy was traded and no one in NOLA should complain about that trade. Jimmy was routinely getting hurt and we received a Pro Bowl center/potential long term starting MLB in return.

Not replying to you Hoodoo but to whomever you replied to.

JG's get confusing when you have/had 2 of them and you mix match the information. Yes the Junior cut is hurting the team. However frick that guy.
This post was edited on 10/1/15 at 10:33 am
Posted by TigerBait1127
Houston
Member since Jun 2005
47336 posts
Posted on 10/1/15 at 10:33 am to
quote:

Jimmy was traded and no one in NOLA should complain about that trade.


The complaint should be that we had to make the trade.

We repeatedly ignored the Center position in the draft despite it being a glaring need.
The same can be said for Guard now

Blaming the FO for Byrd just seems hypocritical though when everyone loved it.
This post was edited on 10/1/15 at 10:35 am
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