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Message
re: Best pick of the 1st round (NFL.com)
Posted on 4/28/13 at 1:00 am to LSUFreek
Posted on 4/28/13 at 1:00 am to LSUFreek
quote:I like you freek. but anyone with a knowledge of football would find the clips that you supplied as "evidence" in that thread to be fairly humorous. I didn't even see your post last night, but now i've responded to it. go read it.
You again? I thought we schooled you last night?
2
Posted on 4/28/13 at 1:21 am to el duderino III
quote:
but anyone with a knowledge of football
Does that include the100's of scouts and draft analyst that all had Vaccaro as the #1 safety?
You know, those guys who get paid money for there football knowledge?
Posted on 4/28/13 at 1:52 am to el duderino III
I read your biased responses. Clearly, your agenda has blinded you.
You are so consumed with thinking everyone is saying he is a "Pro Bowler" (when I have not heard one person here claim that) that you can't even acknowledge Vaccaro was stride-for-stride on every play I gave you as evidence. That's a fact. Thus, your hypothesis that "TA would have gotten open if..." is pure speculation & discounts itself. Vaccaro was with TA step-for-step.
FWIW, I just read SI's grades on all players in the draft and like NFL.com, SI.com gave Vaccaro a favorable review. Vaccaro tied for the third highest grade out of everyone in the draft (8.30).
But before you jump the gun, & get all defensive and go off on SI's meritable analysis of Vaccaro, please note that their highest rated player, Chance Warmack, only had an 8.50, which means in their eyes, Warmack was the only player worthy of a "Top-10 selection; possible Pro Bowler".
To my point, this was a weak draft by comparison to other years. Only 20 guys received a "first round selection" grade from SI like Vaccaro did. It didn't project him as a Pro Bowler, merely that Vaccaro has the chance to start for a team & worthy of a 1st round selection. I agree, as does mostly everyone here else with a decent knowledge of football.
Vaccaro does have the cover skills, athleticism, instincts, physicality, & versatilty to start here in our dismal secondary and help our defense make the opponents offense punt the ball back to Drew Brees. But your opinion is so twisted by you agenda, you discounted every single move on every single play (in both of our linked "evidence" clips) as if Vaccaro wasn't even UDFA material. Think about that.
NFL.com has an opinion. SI.com has an opinion. I & other Vaccaro fans have an opinion. You have an agenda.
You are so consumed with thinking everyone is saying he is a "Pro Bowler" (when I have not heard one person here claim that) that you can't even acknowledge Vaccaro was stride-for-stride on every play I gave you as evidence. That's a fact. Thus, your hypothesis that "TA would have gotten open if..." is pure speculation & discounts itself. Vaccaro was with TA step-for-step.
FWIW, I just read SI's grades on all players in the draft and like NFL.com, SI.com gave Vaccaro a favorable review. Vaccaro tied for the third highest grade out of everyone in the draft (8.30).
But before you jump the gun, & get all defensive and go off on SI's meritable analysis of Vaccaro, please note that their highest rated player, Chance Warmack, only had an 8.50, which means in their eyes, Warmack was the only player worthy of a "Top-10 selection; possible Pro Bowler".
To my point, this was a weak draft by comparison to other years. Only 20 guys received a "first round selection" grade from SI like Vaccaro did. It didn't project him as a Pro Bowler, merely that Vaccaro has the chance to start for a team & worthy of a 1st round selection. I agree, as does mostly everyone here else with a decent knowledge of football.
Vaccaro does have the cover skills, athleticism, instincts, physicality, & versatilty to start here in our dismal secondary and help our defense make the opponents offense punt the ball back to Drew Brees. But your opinion is so twisted by you agenda, you discounted every single move on every single play (in both of our linked "evidence" clips) as if Vaccaro wasn't even UDFA material. Think about that.
NFL.com has an opinion. SI.com has an opinion. I & other Vaccaro fans have an opinion. You have an agenda.
Posted on 4/28/13 at 1:59 am to LSUFreek
quote:
LSUFreek
shite, Freek, you didn't have to go and send him to his mother crying.
Awesome schooling though.
Posted on 4/28/13 at 2:05 am to hugo_boss
You have to think the saints did their homework on who we were going to get in the first round. If we leaned anything while Payton has been the HC, it's that he is a true scout for talent.
Posted on 4/28/13 at 3:17 am to LSUFreek
first off, you still seem to believe that I think KV will be some kind of bust or disaster. He absolutely will not. He will contribute immediately, and be a solid player for us for years. My problem is that in this draft there were players that could do the exact same thing as late as the 3 rd round. Also, I never said anything about a bunch of ppl expecting him to be a pro bowler. I personally expect both jarvis jones and matt elam to be pro bowlers but that is another topic for discussion.
second, your entire defense primarily relies on the opinions of others. the only thing you offered against anything I said, ANY of the clips i posted, ANY of the responses to the "evidence" you provided of him against tavon austin was this
I assume you're talking about the play in which KV was about 7 yards off the line and TA ran about a 12 yard in? then GS had to get rid of the ball due to the pressure, and TA had already gotten inside vaccaro but the pass was wide but still hit austin in the hands. You are now saying that if the QB had had a little more time, the guy that runs 4.34 would not have been able to create more separation against the guy that runs a 4.63? Not to mention, like I said in the other thread, the pressure forced the early throw, which didnt give TA time to get separation (even though he still got his hands on the ball). The fricking announcers words immediately after the play were "intended for tavon austin, who stretched out for it, but the one thing you have to credit this texas team - they have been getting pressure on Geno Smith." Obviously in response to him having to get rid of the ball early.
and as to using si, wlater football, the entire nfl draft history, numerous studies have proved it to be more or less a crap shoot averaged out over time. What is far from a crap shoot is studying successful organizations and their valuations of players relative to unsuccessful organizations' valuations. What writers write about prospects is irrelevant immediately after the draft, since teams' grading of players on average is usually congruent, and there have a been nearly as many busts as successes in the first rounds. What is accurate is what they are writing about the picks years later.
but enough of this. I'm done arguing with you, so let's make it interesting. I dont have a ton of money, but lets make the base bet $100. This will all be predicated on KV starting for us, but if you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, we will have to adjust as the season approaches and his expected PT becomes clear.
-I'll give you 10 to 1 odds on $100 that KV averages at least one bad angle per game that leads to a 13+ yard gain
-I'll give you 6.5 to 1 odds on $100 that KV at least 2 personal fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct, illegal hit, targeting, etc, and is fined at least once in the course of the season.
-I'll give you 4 to 1 odds on $200 that at least 4 catchable balls hit KV in the hands and he drops it, OR 8 to 1 odds on $100 that he drops at least 2 catchable ints, or 16 to 1 odds on $100 that he drops at least 1 catchable ball. (all of course dependent on him putting himself in position TO catch the ball enough times)
we would obviosly need to tweak payouts, discuss what online intermediary to use, how to objectively define the events, etc, and obviously outside of TD due to your celebrity status. but this prop bet is open to anyone by the way. but my finances could only handle 2-3 takers atm
second, your entire defense primarily relies on the opinions of others. the only thing you offered against anything I said, ANY of the clips i posted, ANY of the responses to the "evidence" you provided of him against tavon austin was this
quote:
you can't even acknowledge Vaccaro was stride-for-stride on every play I gave you as evidence. That's a fact. Thus, your hypothesis that "TA would have gotten open if..." is pure speculation & discounts itself. Vaccaro was with TA step-for-step.
I assume you're talking about the play in which KV was about 7 yards off the line and TA ran about a 12 yard in? then GS had to get rid of the ball due to the pressure, and TA had already gotten inside vaccaro but the pass was wide but still hit austin in the hands. You are now saying that if the QB had had a little more time, the guy that runs 4.34 would not have been able to create more separation against the guy that runs a 4.63? Not to mention, like I said in the other thread, the pressure forced the early throw, which didnt give TA time to get separation (even though he still got his hands on the ball). The fricking announcers words immediately after the play were "intended for tavon austin, who stretched out for it, but the one thing you have to credit this texas team - they have been getting pressure on Geno Smith." Obviously in response to him having to get rid of the ball early.
and as to using si, wlater football, the entire nfl draft history, numerous studies have proved it to be more or less a crap shoot averaged out over time. What is far from a crap shoot is studying successful organizations and their valuations of players relative to unsuccessful organizations' valuations. What writers write about prospects is irrelevant immediately after the draft, since teams' grading of players on average is usually congruent, and there have a been nearly as many busts as successes in the first rounds. What is accurate is what they are writing about the picks years later.
but enough of this. I'm done arguing with you, so let's make it interesting. I dont have a ton of money, but lets make the base bet $100. This will all be predicated on KV starting for us, but if you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, we will have to adjust as the season approaches and his expected PT becomes clear.
-I'll give you 10 to 1 odds on $100 that KV averages at least one bad angle per game that leads to a 13+ yard gain
-I'll give you 6.5 to 1 odds on $100 that KV at least 2 personal fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct, illegal hit, targeting, etc, and is fined at least once in the course of the season.
-I'll give you 4 to 1 odds on $200 that at least 4 catchable balls hit KV in the hands and he drops it, OR 8 to 1 odds on $100 that he drops at least 2 catchable ints, or 16 to 1 odds on $100 that he drops at least 1 catchable ball. (all of course dependent on him putting himself in position TO catch the ball enough times)
we would obviosly need to tweak payouts, discuss what online intermediary to use, how to objectively define the events, etc, and obviously outside of TD due to your celebrity status. but this prop bet is open to anyone by the way. but my finances could only handle 2-3 takers atm
This post was edited on 4/28/13 at 4:07 am
Posted on 4/28/13 at 3:29 am to LSUFreek
quote:my only agenda is voicing my belief that the saints blew another 1st round pick. you were the only one on the board who seemed to take it personally, and then tried to offer evidence against my reasoning. Your evidence was absolutely terrible, and you have no response whatsoever to the 20 or so clips FROM A SINGLE GAME showing various holes in your argument that he "shut down" tavon austin. I didnt even have an agenda until you attempted to make this claim, and put your ignorance on full display in the process, which also then derailed the thread while you continued to try to claim he did, for no other reason than you read some sports journalist say he did.
You have an agenda.
Posted on 4/28/13 at 3:48 am to el duderino III
quote:There is a reason why 40 times are an overrated stat, and this is it.
a little more time, the guy that runs 4.34 would not have been able to create more separation against the guy that runs a 4.63?
What do you think the difference there really is? You think that extra 0.3 means in a 5 yard sprint that Vaccaro would be 5 yards behind Austin? We are talking about inches at best.
Ask James Harrison, a pro bowler, if running a slow 40 made him a bad player.
Posted on 4/28/13 at 3:50 am to Hoodoo Man
quote:
shite, Freek, you didn't have to go and send him to his mother crying.
you obviously didnt read the thread and watch the clips. Not to mention see my offer.
my side income for the past 5 years has been grinding poker games. I'm always looking for spots to profit off the ignorance of others. So take my bet and come make me cry.
And while you're at it, go ahead and hop off freek's dick for a minute and think for yourself. I was under the impression his area of expertise was creating amusing gifs, not analyzing football prospects.
This post was edited on 4/28/13 at 4:15 am
Posted on 4/28/13 at 4:02 am to bonethug0108
quote:he almost completed the fricking play with less than a yard of separation. he got two hands on the ball. and you think he needs five to catch it? and you're comparing someone covering tavon austin to fricking 250lb ilb james harrison? jesus christ.
You think that extra 0.3 means in a 5 yard sprint that Vaccaro would be 5 yards behind Austin? We are talking about inches at best.
I'm done. My wager stands. i'm not arguing anymore. my bottom line: the saints spent yet another 1st round pick on a db that will be good, but not good enough, and considerably early, with numerous other options. if you disagree, and think KV will turn out to be exceptional and not just a need-filler, bump the thread if your interested in taking me up on my offer.
Posted on 4/28/13 at 4:19 am to el duderino III
quote:Way to miss both points completely.
he almost completed the fricking play with less than a yard of separation. he got two hands on the ball. and you think he needs five to catch it? and you're comparing someone covering tavon austin to fricking 250lb ilb james harrison? jesus christ.
No, I'm saying if they both ran 5 yards, the distance between them based on their 40 times would be inches. 10 yards might be a foot at best.
You even stated that they had less than a yard of separation. So even if Austin had more time, he at best would have had a foot on Vaccaro. That's not far enough away to avoid a tackle even if the throw was perfect, and if the throw wasn't perfect it would either be wide or too close to Vaccaro given only a foot's difference.
On the Harrison point, I'm not comparing him to Vaccaro. I'm saying that here is a guy that went undrafted because of a slow 40 time, yet he still turned into a pro bowler.
You're using a 40 time, which is actually on par for most safeties, to claim that Vaccaro is to slow to play at the next level. I'm simply stating that 40 times are way overstated and football is about much more than straight line speed. THIS is why Harrison was still a pro bowler despite being "slow".
And now somehow you'll argue that I'm saying Vaccaro will be a pro bowler when nowhere in my post have I stated or implied that.
This post was edited on 4/28/13 at 4:20 am
Posted on 4/28/13 at 5:31 am to bonethug0108
quote:well that's odd, since after austin cut (which was about 5 yards in) he was about 2 feet inside KV, hence, it hitting him in the hands and kv not even within reach to tip it. that seems like more than inches.
I'm saying if they both ran 5 yards, the distance between them based on their 40 times would be inches.
quote:??? there are 3 feet in a yard bud
You even stated that they had less than a yard of separation. So even if Austin had more time, he at best would have had a foot on Vaccaro.
quote:
You're using a 40 time, which is actually on par for most safeties,
matt elam 4.53
eric reid 4.54
in this year alone. Also, interestingly enough there wasn't a single safety drafted in the 1st round in 2012 or 2011. and i'm too lazy to find 40 times farther back.
far more importantly, the argument that 40 times somehow dont matter is complete rationalization. If keke mingo would have ran a 4.68 instead of a 4.58 he might have dropped ten spots or more. Tavon austin runs a 4.34 and was went 8th overall. why exactly do you think that is? because at 5'8" 174 it sure as hell isn't his fricking size. it's not his ability to beat jams at the line. he doesnt have amazing hands and make acrobatic catches. his fricking vertical is 32 for christs sake. so dont sit here and tell me the "experts" know that 40 times dont matter when they pick another player even higher basically solely because his 40 time.
Posted on 4/28/13 at 5:48 am to DoubleDown
quote:
I'll put a 100$ down that KV is *NOT* the best pick of the 1st round.
LOL you poor
Posted on 4/28/13 at 6:02 am to hugo_boss
hopefully this a-hole is right..
Posted on 4/28/13 at 6:52 am to iliveinabox
Posted on 4/28/13 at 6:55 am to el duderino III
In real life, the difference is reaching out your arm and grabbing a guy unless you already have separation.
But you're an idiot and the reason that this site needs an ignore feature.
But you're an idiot and the reason that this site needs an ignore feature.
Posted on 4/28/13 at 7:19 am to el duderino III
Why you two get a room and get it over with?
Can we all agree that whether we love or hate the pick we all hope KV turns out to be a superstar
Can we all agree that whether we love or hate the pick we all hope KV turns out to be a superstar
Posted on 4/28/13 at 7:35 am to bonethug0108
quote:
What do you think the difference there really is? You think that extra 0.3 means in a 5 yard sprint that Vaccaro would be 5 yards behind Austin? We are talking about inches at best.
Not to mention that we're going to be playing a lot of press man, which if done correctly turns a 4.3 guy into Scott Shanle.
Posted on 4/28/13 at 7:43 am to el duderino III
quote:
el duderino III
post less please, you're kind of a douche
Posted on 4/28/13 at 9:38 am to hugo_boss
quote:
Best pick of the 1st round (NFL.com)
Kenny Vaccaro
Just thought the gif needed to be added to original post for dramatic affect
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