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re: The Buzz around DLeague Showcase, Joe Dumars to the Pels
Posted on 1/11/16 at 2:05 pm to TigerinATL
Posted on 1/11/16 at 2:05 pm to TigerinATL
Dumars was a player under Gentry as an assistant for multiple years. He either fired Gentry from Detroit or came on board shortly after. No idea if there is bad blood or not.
Eh. I'm more inclined to give him one for Gordon and Villanueva. Like Gyno said, they were young guys coming off career years. Smith, with Monroe and Drummond already on board, was just bad.
quote:
think he should get a pass for Josh Smith
Eh. I'm more inclined to give him one for Gordon and Villanueva. Like Gyno said, they were young guys coming off career years. Smith, with Monroe and Drummond already on board, was just bad.
1
Posted on 1/11/16 at 2:06 pm to Gtothemoney
Whatever they are going to do I just want the process to start. It is clear that this season is lost and they need a fresh start and to get the ball rolling on the rebuild now.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 2:07 pm to Fun Bunch
Gimme Danny ferry for finding vets and internationals, and dumars to scout college players and help with the draft. Call it co GM
Posted on 1/11/16 at 2:09 pm to chesty
We will need Danny Ferry to tell us how much African Dumars has in him. Only then can we know if Co-GMs will work.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 2:09 pm to NOLA Bronco
quote:
Demps hasn't been great but he also hasn't completely crippled our franchise like Dumars did with his signing of Josh Smith, Charlie V and Ben Gordon.
The signing of Charlie V and Ben Gordon for a combined 10 years, 96 million in the same summer was a textbook example of how to not run a franchise.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 2:17 pm to corndeaux
quote:
they were young guys coming off career years
Right, for those guys to even sniff the contracts they got, multiple teams were in on them.
shite, does anyone actually remember Ben Gordon in Chicago? Dude's free agency was hype AF. His fall from grace is similar to another Gordon we all know. BG led the Bulls in scoring 4 years in a row and was 25 y/o.
Villanueva had the pedigree of a high draft pick and was coming off a great year. It's easy to call him a bust in hindsight, but like Gordon, he was 25 and was seen an "up and coming".
In theory, Dumars was doing exactly what he supposed to; he had cleared out all the overpaid vets from the glory years, and was attempting to build a young core through FA and the draft to make another run. It flopped, but the intention was right.
Dumars wouldnt be the top guy on my list, but he is always brought up as the worst GM ever on the board. I know we got some youngins who dont remember what he did in DET's early years
Posted on 1/11/16 at 2:32 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
People often say that just before hiring Alvin Gentry.
Fixed it.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 3:03 pm to Jester
And Realgm has this on their front page. Berger making some waves with his speculation.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 4:40 pm to VOR
quote:
People claim he "destroyed" the franchise with bad moves toward the end. They forget that he built the fricking franchise.
he gutted their team to get cap room one summer and used that cap room on near-max contracts for charlie villanueva and ben gordon
Posted on 1/11/16 at 4:43 pm to GynoSandberg
gordon was a shooter who couldn't play D but had value and CV was a headcase and most everyone thought he was going to go to shite getting paid
gordon is excusable
CV is not
both in the same year is just magical
gordon is excusable
CV is not
both in the same year is just magical
Posted on 1/11/16 at 5:08 pm to SlowFlowPro
Yeah I think it's some revisionist history to say both were such hot commodities. Ben Gordon was a tweener combo guard chucked that played on one end of the court, and CV I think I remember everyone being just flabbergasted by that contract. Those coupled with Smith? Lol.
I'd prefer someone with a fresh perspective.
I'd prefer someone with a fresh perspective.
This post was edited on 1/11/16 at 5:09 pm
Posted on 1/11/16 at 6:29 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
it's some revisionist history to say both were such hot commodities
Gordon was consistently listed among the top available FA that summer. Certainly questions about his defense and the $$ they gave him, but he was highly thought of. Villanueva is a bit dicier, especially at that money. But he was listed among the top 15 available FA. The dude put up 22/9 on 45/35/84 Per 36 the previous year. He had flashed some skills, and again, not much defense. The money was nuts for him, but taking a bet on him wasn't an awful idea. NBA team overpays in FA is not an unheard of occurrence. Cap space to play FA is almost always fools' gold.
I'll say this too, even after those disastrous signings, Dumars kept his picks and chose Monroe, Knight, Drummond in 3 consecutive 1sts. That they couldn't do anything with that (and signed Josh Smith) is a problem. But I'd like to have the problem of having too many good, cheap, young players at this particular moment.
quote:
I'd prefer someone with a fresh perspective.
Certainly. In no way am I calling for Dumars. It ended badly for him, but, unless you're R.C. Buford, you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
This post was edited on 1/11/16 at 6:31 pm
Posted on 1/11/16 at 6:54 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Yeah I think it's some revisionist history to say both were such hot commodities.
nah i think people are just caught up with what theyve become, which is easy to do since they all suck now.
Gordon was the 3rd pick in the draft. He had a high pedigree, played well in his first few seasons, and was still young. NBA.com had him as the #1 SG in FA that year
ESPN July 2009
quote:
Gordon, the No. 3 pick in 2004, is coming off a postseason in which he averaged a team-high 24.3 points in seven games.
quote:
Gordon, one of the top free agents this summer, signed a $55 million, five-year contract in leaving the Bulls
quote:
Gordon rejected deals from Chicago in excess of $50 million each of the past two seasons.
NBA.com had Villanueva as their #3 PF FA, ahead of David Lee coming off 16/12 season and Marion coming off 13/9 season. Even still, dude only signed for $7m per, which was less than all the PFs in that class.
Josh Smith, again, intrigued a bunch of teams. He was a top 5 FA by many publications, and people were talking up the Monroe, Drummond, Smith trio.
quote:
Smith is the only NBA player to average at least 15 points, seven rebounds, three assists, two blocks and a steal per game since blocks and steals became an official league statistic four decades ago, according to STATS LLC.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 8:52 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
Right, for those guys to even sniff the contracts they got, multiple teams were in on them.
Demps wasnt the only bad GM around the league at the time. Often times, bad GM's come together and create a bidding war or drive up the price for players that they shouldn't and players get way over-inflated salaries. Happens every. single. offseason.
I distinctly remember the Gordon playoff run. I remember talking to friends about how Gordon was about to get WAY overpaid by some sorry GM. That he was a tough fit. Dumas gets him and the roster logic is head scratching. But then he also traded away Aaron Afflalo to Denver. That is the second coup Denver took from Detroit after trading an aging Iverson for Billups who helped lead the Nuggets the deepest in the playoffs they have gotten while Iverson was gone a year later. Josh Smith was never a smart move. The only people that thought Drummond, Smith and Monroe would be a good fit were idiots.
And lets not forget the coaching turnover with Dumars. Blaming everyone but himself. Canning good coaches and bringing in numerous bad ones time and again.
This post was edited on 1/11/16 at 8:54 pm
Posted on 1/11/16 at 9:02 pm to NOLA Bronco
Let me also say this.
While I don't like Dumars for this organization, what should bother not just his detractors but everyone is the way this is rumored to all be going down.
It looks like ownership is poised to make one of the most pivotal organizational decisions by taking the laziest possible approach to filling the position without any due diligence. Reaching for the low hanging fruit in Dumars, the guy friendliest to key people in the organization.
I mean fine, if Loomis and company fired Demps and went through an extensive and objective hiring process to narrow down the best candidates and at the end of that process Dumars managed to impress more then current expert favorites, fine. I won't like it but at least it shows they legitimately went searching for the absolute best candidate available.
Defend Dumars all you want, but I can't imagine how anyone could defend this rumored path ownership is taking toward Dumar's potential hire.
While I don't like Dumars for this organization, what should bother not just his detractors but everyone is the way this is rumored to all be going down.
It looks like ownership is poised to make one of the most pivotal organizational decisions by taking the laziest possible approach to filling the position without any due diligence. Reaching for the low hanging fruit in Dumars, the guy friendliest to key people in the organization.
I mean fine, if Loomis and company fired Demps and went through an extensive and objective hiring process to narrow down the best candidates and at the end of that process Dumars managed to impress more then current expert favorites, fine. I won't like it but at least it shows they legitimately went searching for the absolute best candidate available.
Defend Dumars all you want, but I can't imagine how anyone could defend this rumored path ownership is taking toward Dumar's potential hire.
This post was edited on 1/11/16 at 9:04 pm
Posted on 1/11/16 at 9:11 pm to NOLA Bronco
quote:
It looks like ownership is poised to make one of the most pivotal organizational decisions by taking the laziest possible approach to filling the position without any due diligence.
If this were an actual rumor you might have a point, but like I said in the OP, this looks like dot connecting speculation the same as last season. Let's not go around crushing the decision makers for making a decision that may not ever even happen.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 9:16 pm to NOLA Bronco
I never once said I wanted Dumars. I have no motive to defend him. The hindsight cherry picking is just a tad over the top in this thread, though. The record should always be set straight
Posted on 1/11/16 at 9:27 pm to TigerinATL
I can't take credit for this quote but a few years ago before Dumars signed Josh Smith I saw this somewhere:
"What's more dangerous? LeBron in the open court or Dumars with cap space."
"What's more dangerous? LeBron in the open court or Dumars with cap space."
Posted on 1/11/16 at 10:37 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
If this were an actual rumor you might have a point, but like I said in the OP, this looks like dot connecting speculation the same as last season. Let's not go around crushing the decision makers for making a decision that may not ever even happen.
I should preface that I am not treating this story as gospel.
All we can really ever do with stories like these are 1.) Discuss the credibility of the story itself or 2.) Discuss the implications if we assume the story is true.
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