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re: Outside the top 4 in the draft who are the top 5 guys you want for this team?
Posted on 3/4/16 at 2:12 pm to NOLA Bronco
Posted on 3/4/16 at 2:12 pm to NOLA Bronco
I didn't post here back then but I didn't hate the pick I'll admit I thought he was too much of a hard worker to fail.
1
Posted on 3/4/16 at 2:22 pm to 504ByrdGang
Valentine- super super smart and could be our backup pg off the bench as a six man wing a la iggy or start at either the 2 or 3. Questions on athleticism on the defensive end but high iq guys like Jared Dudley are considered + defenders and I'd be willing to bet Valentine is more athletic than Dudley and just as smart.
Luwawu- potential to be a steal. 30 min a game in Europe at 20 is a big deal especially when your averaging 15 while guarding the best opposing wing player
Hield- natural born leader. Personality of Draymond green with the game of JJ Reddick. Would fit perfectly in this system but other guys have higher ceilings
prince- trade down option. Big physical wing who reminds me of demarre Carroll
Luwawu- potential to be a steal. 30 min a game in Europe at 20 is a big deal especially when your averaging 15 while guarding the best opposing wing player
Hield- natural born leader. Personality of Draymond green with the game of JJ Reddick. Would fit perfectly in this system but other guys have higher ceilings
prince- trade down option. Big physical wing who reminds me of demarre Carroll
Posted on 3/4/16 at 2:33 pm to 504ByrdGang
quote:
I didn't post here back then but I didn't hate the pick I'll admit I thought he was too much of a hard worker to fail.
I know but we both post(ed) on that other board and I remember some of those threads....Man I'm getting old haha.
Mostly just pointing that out to show that it is unwise to get too rigid in your assumptions about prospects because history shows most of us are going to end up with egg on our face being so narrowly focused for one or two guys. MM for instance had Rivers AND Kendall Marshall(Remember that guy's impact? Me either) above Damian Lillard. He couldn't glow any brighter about Rivers potential and why he wouldn't think twice picking him over Lillard.
I prefer just weighing the pros and cons and worrying more about the people making the decision then the actual decision.
This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 2:35 pm
Posted on 3/4/16 at 2:47 pm to NOLA Bronco
quote:
Hield has in fact proven himself. He is a good defender in college above the minimum threshold needed to succeed as a defender in the NBA with pretty much every intangible you want a player to have on the next level. You are right, that is no guarantee of success, many have failed.
Where things start to fall apart is that you then go on to pump up Luwawu, a guy with many more question marks, coming from a place where success has historically been a much worse gauge of transition success in the NBA. Speaking as if the latter is much more likely to succeed and excel then the former.
I'll give you my full explenation why I like Luwawu. When I see this guy I compare it to Jimmer vs Kawhi but at a smaller level. Jimmer was dominant in college and destroying every one he was skilled and could score any where on the floor. Heild is the same but bigger. He had trouble in the past year scoring in the paint and creating off the dribble. This season he has gotten much better at that. But people are forgetting this guy is playing in his fully developed body vs scrawny teenagers. He was able to be more effective this season he's able to over power his oppents and get to the rim. In the NBA he will not have that same trait. He's too small, isn't quick enough, strong enough, or explosive enough. I seen a stat that said he's greatly increased the amount of time he attempted to score inside the arch and he used to settle for floaters. He doesn't have the NBA skill set to do that at the next level. I have no doubt he's skilled I just don't think it would translate well. Unless he becomes a master off ball players who runs all day and uses screens like JJ he screams bust to me. With Luwawu he has the NBA length, siZe, and athletic ability. He also shows hes a hard worker that trait the Kawhi has. Within one year he great improved his shooting and is shooting at NBA range. He a great defender and has quick hands to guard the best perimeter player. He's also playing at a much higher level Than any of the other top picks avg 30 mins at only 20. Not to mention his passing he has great court awareness. I will admit he has a very low floor but his ceiling is something we desperately need. Every fault in his game is something that can be improved from his weight, to creating off the dribble to get into the lane. And finishing through contact this Kawhi all improved upon. If he didn't show the improvements he did from year one to two I would be much lower on him. Tbh I don't like Brown either he reminds me of an Aminu type good defensive potential with low IQ and a shaky offensive game who doesn't have drive. My list if who I want is Ben, Ingram,Brown, Murray, Fun, Luwawu.
This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 3/4/16 at 2:50 pm to NOLA Bronco
quote:
I prefer just weighing the pros and cons and worrying more about the people making the decision then the actual decision.
Why are you so dubious about Luwawu then? The sample size and competition is less that we'd like, but he sure looks like a 2 way wing. Guys with that level of size and athleticism that fail usually fail because they're either one way players and never become a good enough 2 way player, or they're low motor/bad attitude types.
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:01 pm to TigerinATL
what are his offensive numbers like to make him a 2 way player? the ones i saw were bad.
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:06 pm to TotesMcGotes
quote:
Steph Curry will never be able to get his shot off in the NBA.
He's not tough enough to finish around the rim.
He's not a good enough athlete.
people thought Jimmer Fredette would be better than Curry
scoring in college doesnt automatically translate to the NBA
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:13 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
what are his offensive numbers like to make him a 2 way player? the ones i saw were bad.
You have to look at his numbers from this season. His numbers weren't good last year, but he was also only 19 then. In 25 games this year he's posting
ORtg 104
TS% 53.6%
3P% 37.9%
LINK
I'm not saying he's a potential superstar, but if what he's done this year is representative of his talent, then eventually becoming a Batum caliber player doesn't seem unrealistic.
This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 3:14 pm
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:14 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Why are you so dubious about Luwawu then? The sample size and competition is less that we'd like, but he sure looks like a 2 way wing. Guys with that level of size and athleticism that fail usually fail because they're either one way players and never become a good enough 2 way player, or they're low motor/bad attitude types.
I have reservations, but I have reservations about Hield. The only reason my positives of one are so prominent and the negatives so prominent about the other is because 504 is continually putting down one in favor of the other like this is some zero sum game.
There are few if any sure bets in the draft once you get past the first couple picks, even then its not always the case. Same goes for Hield and Luwawu.
I do think there is a tendency for people to fall too in love with the allure of potential brought by young prospects with measurables that lack enough data to begin deflating the positive projections their fans attach to them. Luwawu may be the next Batum or he may be the next Sefolosha or he may be the next Bruno Caboclo.
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:16 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
You have to look at his numbers from this season. His numbers weren't good last year, but he was also only 19 then. In 25 games this year he's posting
ORtg 104
TS% 53.6%
3P% 37.9%
LINK
I'm not saying he's a potential superstar, but if what he's done this year is representative of his talent, then eventually becoming a Batum caliber player doesn't seem unrealistic.
Thats the question though, how representative is 25 games of a person's potential? I admit the guy has potential but some speak like he is close to a sure thing and that seems ludicrous.
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:19 pm to 504ByrdGang
quote:
They said that about Rivers, he had the IT factor, was competitive, didn't shy away from big moments.
"THEY" only watched the UNC game and came away with that opinion of him for his college career.
If his last name wasn't Rivers, he probably wouldn't have been drafted in the first round.
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:38 pm to 504ByrdGang
quote:
I'll give you my full explenation why I like Luwawu. When I see this guy I compare it to Jimmer vs Kawhi but at a smaller level. Jimmer was dominant in college and destroying every one he was skilled and could score any where on the floor. Heild is the same but bigger. He had trouble in the past year scoring in the paint and creating off the dribble. This season he has gotten much better at that. But people are forgetting this guy is playing in his fully developed body vs scrawny teenagers. He was able to be more effective this season he's able to over power his oppents and get to the rim. In the NBA he will not have that same trait. He's too small, isn't quick enough, strong enough, or explosive enough. I seen a stat that said he's greatly increased the amount of time he attempted to score inside the arch and he used to settle for floaters. He doesn't have the NBA skill set to do that at the next level. I have no doubt he's skilled I just don't think it would translate well. Unless he becomes a master off ball players who runs all day and uses screens like JJ he screams bust to me. With Luwawu he has the NBA length, siZe, and athletic ability. He also shows hes a hard worker that trait the Kawhi has. Within one year he great improved his shooting and is shooting at NBA range. He a great defender and has quick hands to guard the best perimeter player. He's also playing at a much higher level Than any of the other top picks avg 30 mins at only 20. Not to mention his passing he has great court awareness. I will admit he has a very low floor but his ceiling is something we desperately need. Every fault in his game is something that can be improved from his weight, to creating off the dribble to get into the lane. And finishing through contact this Kawhi all improved upon. If he didn't show the improvements he did from year one to two I would be much lower on him. Tbh I don't like Brown either he reminds me of an Aminu type good defensive potential with low IQ and a shaky offensive game who doesn't have drive. My list if who I want is Ben, Ingram,Brown, Murray, Fun, Luwawu.
So on the one hand Hield is a hard worker and showed he can greatly improve his game year over year and on the other hand we have Luwawu(only 1 year and 3 months younger) who has shown that for 25 games his percentages have gone up after a couple years of mediocrity.
You conclude then that only one guy, the guy you like, will be able to continue that growth in the NBA and the other guy will not. Mind you Luwawu is still not even at Hields level at pretty much any skill on the court besides rebounding and as has been pointed out to you Hield has all the necessary tools to succeed. Where you see promise in one guy by improving from mediocrity you refuse to see it in another. One who arguably improved much greater.
You knock Hield for excelling against what you call scrawny teenagers then praise Luwawu for excelling less against just as questionable opponents.
I don't mind you liking Luwawu, but at least be even handed with your evaluations. You put on the rose tinted glasses for one guy and then down some haterade when looking at the other guy. Thats not how you evaluate talent.
Basically the only differentiating point you are making is you like one guys measurables more. But even then you are once again objectively overstating how bad Hield's are. And when you continue to do that, it discredits almost any and all of the rest of your analysis.
This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 3:42 pm
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:38 pm to NOLA Bronco
I don't think hes the sure thing I think he has a high ceiling along with showing great promise that why I am high on him. Rather than a guy like Burno who has high potential but has shown nothing.
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:43 pm to NOLA Bronco
quote:
So on the one hand Hield is a hard worker and showed he can greatly improve his game year over year and on the other hand we have Luwawu(only 1 year and 3 months younger) who has shown that for 25 games his percentages have gone up after a couple years of mediocrity.
You conclude then that only one guy, the guy you like, will be able to continue that growth in the NBA and the other guy will not. Mind you Luwawu is still not even at Hields level at pretty much any skill on the court besides rebounding and as has been pointed out to you Hield has all the necessary tools to succeed.
You knock Hield for excelling against what you call scrawny teenagers then praise Luwawu for excelling less against just as questionable opponents.
I don't mind you liking Luwawu, but at least be even handed with your evaluations. You put on the rose tinted glasses for one guy and then down some haterade when looking at the other guy. Thats not how you evaluate talent.
Basically the only differentiating point you are making is you like one guys measurables more. But even then you are once again objectively overstating how bad Hield's are.
To simplfy it, for Heild to get better at his faults size, speed, and athleticism is less like than Luwawu getting better at his with strength, dribbling, and absorbing contact. As for their level of play, Heild is a man playing with boys and Luwawu is a boy playing with men. I feel like Heild is the safe pick with a low ceiling and if it works out he will be OK and have a role on this squad. Luwau is a riskier pick but if he pans out will be a cornerstone of this team so I guess I rather bet big.
This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 3:55 pm
Posted on 3/4/16 at 3:57 pm to GynoSandberg
Jimmer can't play off ball and has poor footwork.
Posted on 3/4/16 at 4:16 pm to supe12sta12z
Well yeah, I'm not talking about hindsight, though. Guy was knocking down 30 a game and that's all people saw; a supposed great scorer with NBA range yada yada yada
Case in point, he was drafted AHEAD of these guys (read twice to let this sink in) WHY?
Klay Thompson
Alec Burks
Morris twins
Kwahi
Vucevic
Tobias
Faried
Mirotic
Reggie Jackson
Jimmy Butler
Parsons
Ike Thomas
How does fredette get drafted in front of Klay, Kwahi, Butler on any planet?
I'm wary of Heild until I see how he tests and measures at the combine. Think about how he's going to handle the likes of Thompson, Leonard and Butler defending him with their length and atheltism? How will he create his show vs guys like that?
Case in point, he was drafted AHEAD of these guys (read twice to let this sink in) WHY?
Klay Thompson
Alec Burks
Morris twins
Kwahi
Vucevic
Tobias
Faried
Mirotic
Reggie Jackson
Jimmy Butler
Parsons
Ike Thomas
How does fredette get drafted in front of Klay, Kwahi, Butler on any planet?
I'm wary of Heild until I see how he tests and measures at the combine. Think about how he's going to handle the likes of Thompson, Leonard and Butler defending him with their length and atheltism? How will he create his show vs guys like that?
Posted on 3/4/16 at 5:00 pm to 504ByrdGang
quote:
They said that about Rivers, he had the IT factor,
Lo muthafricking l
Posted on 3/4/16 at 5:05 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
TS% 53.6%
That's not that good in euro ball, no?
Posted on 3/4/16 at 5:45 pm to 504ByrdGang
quote:
To simplfy it, for Heild to get better at his faults size, speed, and athleticism is less like than Luwawu getting better at his with strength, dribbling, and absorbing contact. As for their level of play, Heild is a man playing with boys and Luwawu is a boy playing with men. I feel like Heild is the safe pick with a low ceiling and if it works out he will be OK and have a role on this squad. Luwau is a riskier pick but if he pans out will be a cornerstone of this team so I guess I rather bet big.
Listen I can accept you like Luwawu over Hield, I can. But this continual false prism you are viewing each player through to buffer your arguments I can not.
Luwawu is only 1 year and 3 months younger then Hield. Luwawu, like Hield, is on his 4th season playing at a true competitive level. So this whole Boy amongst men, men amongst boys thing is just not true. To even further put this in context, Luwawu is playing in a league with probably not a single other NBA caliber talent. Hield plays them regularly. So this argument of competition level is just false.
And again you are framing Hields athleticism, size and speed as if it is below the threshold where a person can succeed in the NBA. Held is very strong. Just to catch Hield, Luwawu would need to put on 20 pounds of muscle. As AD has shown, that is easier said then done and Luwawu is knocked for his small frame and shoulder width which limits his ability to add mass. Hield is graded as having better quickness and athleticism then numerous successful guards like Beal, McCollum, Matthews, Reddick and has a similar height and wingspan. So his measurables are in no way a barrier to him being a high impact player in this league.
I agree Luwawu has a higher ceiling but he also has a ways to go just to get to Hields level. I just don't think we need to misrepresent Hield's own potential to make that case.
This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 5:57 pm
Posted on 3/4/16 at 5:47 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
How does fredette get drafted in front of Klay, Kwahi, Butler on any planet?
Sacramento
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