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League and Union already talking CBA, hope to have agreement by end of season
Posted on 9/2/15 at 1:58 pm
Posted on 9/2/15 at 1:58 pm
quote:
Roberts in a Q&A with Davide Chinellato of La Gazzetta dello Sport, as translated by E. Carchia of Sportando:
How can the potential lockout be avoided in 2017?
“Sitting down at a table already now with the NBA to understand what worries the owners and what worries the players. In the past very few attempts to speak in advance of the problems that led to the lockouts have been made. Whether Both commissioner Silver and myself want to do everything possible to prevent the NBA to stop: the only way is to negotiate. We have already started, we will meet again in early September with the hope to announce within the end of the season that the union and the league have solved their problems. “
LINK
This is a step in the right direction, but could easily just be posturing, ie "the Union started early and this isn't done yet so the owners must be the problem." Still, there is too much money flowing to have a lockout/strike.
This post was edited on 9/2/15 at 2:00 pm
4
Posted on 9/2/15 at 2:47 pm to TigerinATL
Hopefully they address this one and done crap and mirror something close to what MLB has in regards to their draft eligibility.
Posted on 9/3/15 at 10:04 am to Hammond Tiger Fan
quote:
Hopefully they address this one and done crap and mirror something close to what MLB has in regards to their draft eligibility.
One and done is horrible for college bball and probably not that great for the NBA. The NBA needs to expand the NBADL (like it is rumored to be) and have the policy of you can enter the draft right out of high school and/or sign with a D-league team if undrafted or go to college. I liked the plan where a player doesn't lose his eligibility until after the draft so he knows where he stands and can make the best decision.
Posted on 9/3/15 at 12:04 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
could easily just be posturing, ie "the Union started early and this isn't done yet so the owners must be the problem."
I don't think so, the fact that she said that the league is also involved kind of takes that argument off of the table.
Posted on 9/3/15 at 3:46 pm to WeeWee
quote:
One and done is horrible for college bball and probably not that great for the NBA
Nothing has changed for the NBA except rookies will be a year older. Most of the best guys come out early and produce because they have the goods.
quote:
plan where a player doesn't lose his eligibility until after the draft so he knows where he stands and can make the best decision.
This is the rule that makes sense for the player and the NCAA. Not sure how the CBA changes that rule though. I'm not a fan of the baseball draft rules for the NBA at the moment.
Posted on 9/3/15 at 9:25 pm to corndeaux
quote:
Nothing has changed for the NBA except rookies will be a year older. Most of the best guys come out early and produce because they have the goods.
There are quite a few players that should have stayed in college and developed their game. That would keep them from being busts and that would be good for the teams that drafted them and that should be good for the league. Every team having a D-League team would also help solve that problem too.
quote:
plan where a player doesn't lose his eligibility until after the draft so he knows where he stands and can make the best decision.
This is the rule that makes sense for the player and the NCAA. Not sure how the CBA changes that rule though. I'm not a fan of the baseball draft rules for the NBA at the moment.
The CBA wouldn't affect, but if the NBA & NBAPA agreed and publicly supported a MLB minor league and eligibilty type program the NCAA would adjust pretty quickly. The players and some big name coaches are already in favor of it.
Posted on 9/3/15 at 10:27 pm to WeeWee
quote:
There are quite a few players that should have stayed in college and developed their game. That would keep them from being busts and that would be good for the teams that drafted them and that should be good for the league
There have always been busts. With one and done, prep to pros, 4 year players, whatever. I have never seen any evidence to support the idea that forcing guys to stay in college reduces the amount of busts. Likewise,I have never seen any evidence that one and done or even prep to pros created more busts than staying in school.
If anything, the NCAA's inane draft eligibility rules handicap their own product more than whatever the NBA does.
quote:
The players and some big name coaches are already in favor of it.
Which players? Not attacking. Curious.
If they put real $$ into the DLeague, force 1:1 affiliation, and add roster flexibility, I'm fine with MLB style rules. But, in general, I don't like the idea of taking away player agency. It's their bodies and their careers; they should be given the ability to choose how they want to maximize their talents.
Posted on 9/3/15 at 11:27 pm to corndeaux
quote:
There have always been busts. With one and done, prep to pros, 4 year players, whatever. I have never seen any evidence to support the idea that forcing guys to stay in college reduces the amount of busts. Likewise,I have never seen any evidence that one and done or even prep to pros created more busts than staying in school.
quote:Just skipped to conclusion section because the results are all over the place.
The general pattern in the data would suggest that lessskilled
players perform at a lower level when they enter the NBA earlier and are therefore
helped by the 2006 age minimum. For these players, playing college basketball seems to
be correlated with an improved level of performance that would lead to a higher earning
potential, but this cannot be proven at a statistically significant level
That is why a MLB minor league type system is the best. Players can choose to enter the draft be drafted or not and then go or return to college if they don't like their results. I think 2 years would work better than 3 years (like baseball) for basketball. Obviosuly the NBA and NCAA would have to workout a deadline and the NBA would have to work out a compensation system for teams if their draft picks returned to college. A lotto pick is not going to turn down the NBA for college (just like Zach Lee took the Dodgers over LSU), but a 2nd rounder might and probably should return to college.
quote:
If anything, the NCAA's inane draft eligibility rules handicap their own product more than whatever the NBA does.
No doubt and hopefully this passes in Jan.
quote:LINK
The NCAA men’s basketball oversight committee has proposed a significant rule change that would allow undergraduate basketball players to return to school and resume their playing careers after initialing declaring their eligibility for the NBA draft. This proposed amendment is a drastic change from existing NCAA rules which prevent a student-athlete from returning to school and resuming his collegiate basketball career once he has filed for NBA draft eligibility.
Under the proposed rule change, underclassmen who have initially elected to make themselves eligible for the NBA draft would be permitted to attend the NBA’s pre-draft combine in May and receive a personal evaluation of their projected draft status by NBA personnel. The player then would be able to review and assess the feedback he received and potentially withdraw from NBA draft consideration and protect their remaining collegiate eligibility. If adopted, the NCAA will establish a withdrawal deadline date consistent with the proposal.
quote:
Which players? Not attacking. Curious.
I read an article, but it was back in June when the proposal was being discussed and some of the players from this past draft supported it. I will look some more for the article when I am not so tired tomorrow.
quote:
If they put real $$ into the DLeague, force 1:1 affiliation, and add roster flexibility, I'm fine with MLB style rules. But, in general, I don't like the idea of taking away player agency. It's their bodies and their careers; they should be given the ability to choose how they want to maximize their talents.
True, but that is not fair to the team that drafted the player, but there is an easy solution to that too. Here is my idea. If a team drafts a player, but the player decides to return to school the drafting team retains his rights. Just like what they do when an international player decides to stay abroad. You wouldn't need an age limit (other than being 18 and hs graduate) because the player and the team have a safety net to fall back on.
Posted on 9/4/15 at 8:12 am to corndeaux
quote:
If they put real $$ into the DLeague, force 1:1 affiliation, and add roster flexibility, I'm fine with MLB style rules. But, in general, I don't like the idea of taking away player agency. It's their bodies and their careers; they should be given the ability to choose how they want to maximize their talents.
While I'm more interested in the NBA, I'd love to see college basketball rosters have more stability. That would increase fan interest generally, imo. Not just during March. I'd love to see a D League as you to describe. It makes sense.
Posted on 9/4/15 at 4:55 pm to WeeWee
quote:
Just skipped to conclusion section because the results are all over the place.
quote:
I think 2 years would work better than 3 years (like baseball) for basketball
Thanks for the link. That seems to confirm what I've read- it's all very messy and very different for different players. And, yeah, 2 years would be much better than 3.
I hope that NCAA rule change happens. It is crazy college guys have to decide a full 2 months before the draft if they are staying or going.
quote:
If a team drafts a player, but the player decides to return to school the drafting team retains his rights.
I assume a player would have to apply to enter the draft, unlike MLB. If so, I like that.
Posted on 9/4/15 at 5:02 pm to VOR
quote:
That would increase fan interest generally, imo.
I think the rosters play a part, certainly. But the playing style and the scheduling don't help attract fans either, IMO.
I do believe (completely unsupported by any sort of evidence) the way NCAA ball is played creates a steeper learning curve for rookies coming into the NBA. At times, the two feel like different sports to me.
Posted on 9/4/15 at 8:51 pm to WeeWee
that study has a lot of issues. i'll give you one major one
that's bullshite. those players are "left out" and should be terrible indictments of staying in college (especially if this study is for "skill development")
also, the study is based on "high school rankings". does anybody believe a scientific study should be based on rivals.com?
another major issue is that the study focuses on the entire 1st round, which ignores reality of the NBA. the majority of 1st rounders won't do well, so you're relying on the success of mostly average starters/bench players/bad players as the backbone of your study. how does this tell us anything about drafting good/great players?
this is also probably the most important variable, which the author tries to dismiss b/c it obviously doesn't fit with its desired conclusion
when the study focuses on the top-level players, over and over again it confirms that leaving early leads to more money, minutes, PER, etc
that's all that really matters. assuming that every 1st round pick should be considered on equal footing is ridiculous
the NBA skews WAY towards the very top of the 1st round
quote:
Although another more minor form of selection bias might also arise in this
regression, the potential effects seem to counteract each other to some degree. On one
hand, players who have left school early and failed to make it to the NBA pose a
problem. On the other hand, players who have stayed longer than two years in college
and have no NBA experience in their third year out of high school are left out of the study
that's bullshite. those players are "left out" and should be terrible indictments of staying in college (especially if this study is for "skill development")
also, the study is based on "high school rankings". does anybody believe a scientific study should be based on rivals.com?
another major issue is that the study focuses on the entire 1st round, which ignores reality of the NBA. the majority of 1st rounders won't do well, so you're relying on the success of mostly average starters/bench players/bad players as the backbone of your study. how does this tell us anything about drafting good/great players?
this is also probably the most important variable, which the author tries to dismiss b/c it obviously doesn't fit with its desired conclusion
quote:
While high school standouts such as Kevin Garnett and Kobe Bryant who have made immense sums of money in the NBA may somewhat inflate this figure, bypassing college here appears to be correlated with a higher earning potential.
when the study focuses on the top-level players, over and over again it confirms that leaving early leads to more money, minutes, PER, etc
quote:
For more-skilled players, the trends in the data seem to suggest that entering the
NBA at an earlier age might have a neutral if not positive effect. Although the results
show primarily negative coefficients for performance after entrance from high school, the
primarily positive coefficients for the “Top 5” interaction term have the opposite effect.
Combining these two coefficients tells us that top five recruits who enter the NBA
immediately after high school fair about the same as those who attend college and in
some cases outperform them. If these results were indeed true, it would mean that early
entrance remains the best option for these players.
that's all that really matters. assuming that every 1st round pick should be considered on equal footing is ridiculous
the NBA skews WAY towards the very top of the 1st round
Posted on 9/5/15 at 5:07 pm to SlowFlowPro
The bottom line is college is the closest thing we have to a development system right now. If they aren't going to significantly improve the Dleague then they need to work with the NCAA. Maybe trade baseball like draft rules in exchange for system and rule changes that makes college ball better prep for the pros.
Posted on 9/6/15 at 7:33 am to TigerinATL
quote:
The bottom line is college is the closest thing we have to a development system right now. If they aren't going to significantly improve the Dleague then they need to work with the NCAA. Maybe trade baseball like draft rules in exchange for system and rule changes that makes college ball better prep for the pros.
This. Make it like baseball. If you want to go pro after HS then fine. If not then 3yrs of college/ 21 by certain date then pros.
Posted on 9/6/15 at 11:56 am to TigerinATL
A few scattered thoughts:
1- College coaches are paid to win games, not produce quality NBA players (nor to graduate players). As a development system, that's backwards. A similar critique is often thrown at AAU teams that are "ruining" basketball.
2- I'm all for rules changes and hope they happen because I like basketball, but I'm not too sure they would change the product or increase the developmental curve that much. That requires coaches willing to change their mindsets. The fact that Calipari is seen as a pariah and destroyer of CBB for doing just that is not encouraging. But, I've been wrong many times before and maybe it would open up the game and smooth the rookie transition.
3- Only a small part of the 300+ DI coaches have this problem. Why should the vast majority care about changing the rules to help the rich stay richer? If I'm at a school that won't attract one and done type talent, why would I want Kevin Durant to be forced to stay 2 or 3 years at Texas? Doesn't it help my chances of winning if he moves on quickly? And one and done isn't hurting March Madness ratings, from where most of the revenue comes.
4- To me, much of the argument for keeping kids in school seems to be wanting a return to the "good ole days" of CBB. I understand that sentiment. But having better CBB and producing a better development system for NBA hopefuls aren't necessarily tied together, nor should they be- the NCAA ostensibly has very different goals than being a minor league.
IMO, both CBB and NBA development are in the midst of a fundamental redesign. It will take time to see how it all shakes out, but I do believe the old paradigm should and will be altered.
1- College coaches are paid to win games, not produce quality NBA players (nor to graduate players). As a development system, that's backwards. A similar critique is often thrown at AAU teams that are "ruining" basketball.
2- I'm all for rules changes and hope they happen because I like basketball, but I'm not too sure they would change the product or increase the developmental curve that much. That requires coaches willing to change their mindsets. The fact that Calipari is seen as a pariah and destroyer of CBB for doing just that is not encouraging. But, I've been wrong many times before and maybe it would open up the game and smooth the rookie transition.
3- Only a small part of the 300+ DI coaches have this problem. Why should the vast majority care about changing the rules to help the rich stay richer? If I'm at a school that won't attract one and done type talent, why would I want Kevin Durant to be forced to stay 2 or 3 years at Texas? Doesn't it help my chances of winning if he moves on quickly? And one and done isn't hurting March Madness ratings, from where most of the revenue comes.
4- To me, much of the argument for keeping kids in school seems to be wanting a return to the "good ole days" of CBB. I understand that sentiment. But having better CBB and producing a better development system for NBA hopefuls aren't necessarily tied together, nor should they be- the NCAA ostensibly has very different goals than being a minor league.
IMO, both CBB and NBA development are in the midst of a fundamental redesign. It will take time to see how it all shakes out, but I do believe the old paradigm should and will be altered.
Posted on 9/6/15 at 12:29 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
The bottom line is college is the closest thing we have to a development system right now.
i think the NBA does a fine job developing its talent
quote:
in exchange for system and rule changes that makes college ball better prep for the pros.
that is ultimately impossible
you'd have to legitimately eliminate rewards for things like winning
Posted on 9/6/15 at 12:31 pm to corndeaux
quote:
1- College coaches are paid to win games, not produce quality NBA players (nor to graduate players). As a development system, that's backwards
thank you
quote:
3- Only a small part of the 300+ DI coaches have this problem. Why should the vast majority care about changing the rules to help the rich stay richer?
exactly
quote:
To me, much of the argument for keeping kids in school seems to be wanting a return to the "good ole days" of CBB.
this + the belief that somehow college is better at developing top talent
Posted on 9/11/15 at 1:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
college is better at developing top talent
How do you develop if you don't get to play? We're not talking superstars with elite talent, baseball eligibility would let them through. Riding the pine for 2 years is better than being 2nd banana on a tournament team? Sure you get more time to "work on your craft", but how motivated are you going to be if you know that you won't play in non garbage time for a few years?
Basketball Insiders had some interesting analysis of the labor battle.
quote:
The wise and astute Larry Coon often points out in our debates over the labor deal that the revenue split between the players and the owners is all that really matters. From that, everything else happens – and if the split of revenue is right, all the things that get complained about go away.
...For the sake of discussion, let’s call the current revenue split 51 percent. Getting that number to 53 percent likely gets a deal done, or close to done.
...The NBA desperately wants the NBA’s minimum age limit increased to two years removed from your graduating class and a minimum age of 20. NBA Commissioner Adam Silver has labeled this a top priority for him, and it’s something the players will have to address to reach a deal.
...From a players’ point of view, the D-League isn’t their problem. They don’t want to see a dime of the player revenue redirected to the D-League. However, there is a growing sense that the Players Association has to help the players in the D-League and there could be a horse trade of sorts to be had.
While committing any NBA BRI money to the D-League is a non-starter for the players, there could be good will gained if in exchange for say a “Two and Through” age limit, that owners, from their share, commit to better and more robust funding of the D-League.
LINK /
I don't see the owners giving back 2 percent. Will they laugh and say "yeah, we really hosed you on the split last time." when the BRI split gets brought up? Probably. But what leverage do the players have for more revenue other than the cost of losing games? Sure a lost season hurts the owners, but the players are the ones making more money than ever with a very small career earning window. That's why the billionaires always beat the millionaires in these things.
Posted on 9/11/15 at 6:12 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
How do you develop if you don't get to play?
developing your body and skills and learning the NBA game at your NBA position (the biggest issue with college)
playing means next to nothing if you're playing in a non-NBA offense/defense in your non-NBA position
Posted on 9/11/15 at 6:53 pm to TigerinATL
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