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Message
re: Davis is shooting 55% from midrange so far..
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:04 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:04 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
with a proper offense you don't need to do this, especially if you have a passer on the elbow and a driver besides, just picture it a defender closing in on a 20 footer is going to still close in on a 23 footer. if that's your "good" shot that they WILL defend, you're talking about a very slight difference in terms of defensive spacing. it's essentially the same shot that will gain the same respect, so i just don't see how this changing anything. that's my whole point off the P/R it makes sense b/c you can pick/pop (assuming you have a good driver, which we have 3 of) other than that, the spacing difference for a defender is about 0 and if they respect your long2, they'll respect your 3s slightly behind the long2
I presented some data. I can picture many competing reasonable things, but the data needs to be factored in. Data can be misleading, but Duncan taking all those long 2's is contrary one of your basic planks in your argument.
You should address that.
2
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:08 am to 42
quote:
I presented some data. I can picture many competing reasonable things, but the data needs to be factored in. Data can be misleading, but Duncan taking all those long 2's is contrary one of your basic planks in your argument.
You should address that.
Many PFs defy the logic:
Amare, Duncan, West, and Bosh are the first to come to mind. They all make a living off of long 2s.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:12 am to 42
quote:
Duncan taking all those long 2's is contrary one of your basic planks in your argument.
duncan shoots his long shots off the P/R with parker, though, which i said is the use for the long2
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:35 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
duncan shoots his long shots off the P/R with parker, though, which i said is the use for the long2
Those do happen, and many others.
ETA: Besides, regardless of the course, it goes to show that the long 2 is a common shot for at least some of the best players with Davis' role (others were listed above . . . I'm not linking to the world here).
This post was edited on 11/4/13 at 11:37 am
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:36 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
other than driving, he isn't creating shots at the rim right now
why does he need a b2b game to be a successful creator at the rim? if we want to talk efficiency, straight post ups are not particularly efficient at all.
turn and face and then attack from the block or mid post is a legit weapon.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:40 am to 42
quote:
ETA: Besides, regardless of the course, it goes to show that the long 2 is a common shot for at least some of the best players with Davis' role (others were listed above . . . I'm not linking to the world here).
Exactly.
I get what SFP is trying to argue here in terms of efficiency models. However, in terms of actual basketball play, it doesn't just work like that.
The Long to Mid Range jumper is a great weapon to have for a PF. We have guys that can shoot the 3, and a stretch 4. We don't really need another stretch 4.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:48 am to corndeaux
quote:
if we want to talk efficiency, straight post ups are not particularly efficient at all.
this is correct, but with good passing you can destroy the opponent from 3 on the opposite end. that's what SA does a lot with duncan
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:49 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
We don't really need another stretch 4.
but davis is playing like a stretch 4
that's why he and rybot don't play well together
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:51 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
Exactly. I get what SFP is trying to argue here in terms of efficiency models. However, in terms of actual basketball play, it doesn't just work like that. The Long to Mid Range jumper is a great weapon to have for a PF. We have guys that can shoot the 3, and a stretch 4. We don't really need another stretch 4.
I think so. The consequence of always shooting from say, half the area of the floor, even if it is sparsely distributed, is that the defense can deploy differently against you. Once the defense is meaningfully different than the one in the model, it all goes out of the window. If they hold your three point shooting to under 1/3, then you are better off taking the long 2 . . . that you practice . . . that Davis practices . . . if you can hit it over 50%.
The changes that your offense causes in the defense is essentially the issue that is ignored by many of the basic efficiency studies, and that is fine; that is not their function. They simply provide the benefit structure and do a good job of it. It is all to common for people to ignore costs in analyses, especially opportunity costs or effects of `market changes' by systematic changes in `demand' . . . in this case, changes in defense by behaving more predictably.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:51 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
but davis is playing like a stretch 4
No he really isn't.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 11:54 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
but davis is playing like a stretch 4 that's why he and rybot don't play well together
He's playing more like a slasher. Ryno will open up the lane a lot more for all our penetrators and slashers.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 12:02 pm to EarthwormJim
Only 21% of his shots are from distance. Dirk, for instance, is over 50%. Garnett also shoots more than 50% of shots from distance this season. Bosh is taking 66% of his shots from distance.
So...AD really isn't playing like a stretch 4 at all, yet.
So...AD really isn't playing like a stretch 4 at all, yet.
This post was edited on 11/4/13 at 12:08 pm
Posted on 11/4/13 at 12:28 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
with good passing you can destroy the opponent from 3 on the opposite end. that's what SA does a lot with duncan
thats more miami and bron. the "new" spurs do much more with duncan at the elbow and running all sorts of action off that and pnr. to be sure, he still posts up, but it isnt the staple of their offense like it has been
They can and do run stuff with Davis at the elbow. They need to do more, but its a start. Eventually I would like to see them try Evans in the LeBron role with the second unit. That could be lethal if Evans has got the chops to make it work.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 2:40 pm to EarthwormJim
quote:Can't wait. I was looking at some of the advanced numbers and Holiday and Evans are both top 5 in the league in drives to the basket. They've just made a ridiculously low % so far. Thats gonna even out over time, and having Anderson there to pull bigs away from the basket is gonna help a ton.
Ryno will open up the lane a lot more for all our penetrators and slashers.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 2:49 pm to eyeran
quote:This just proves how much Doug Collins sucks at coaching offense. Last year Holiday was criticized for taking too many long 2s and not driving to the basket enough.
and Holiday and Evans are both top 5 in the league in drives to the basket.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 3:34 pm to tgr4ever
Well Holiday's issues are interesting. Certainly he was asked to do too much and Collins' offense sucked. Yet he's never been great finishing at the rim (best is 55% and I believe that only happened once) On the plus side, he has been much better hitting 3s so far.
Evans and Gordon should see big jumps- they have both consistently been around 60% for their careers and are very poor right now.
Davis is another guy struggling a bit. He's only hitting 51% of his 35 attempts at the rim. Last year he was at 68%.
Evans and Gordon should see big jumps- they have both consistently been around 60% for their careers and are very poor right now.
Davis is another guy struggling a bit. He's only hitting 51% of his 35 attempts at the rim. Last year he was at 68%.
Posted on 11/4/13 at 9:15 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
he is hitting long 2s at a pretty good clip right now. i can only think of one player who can't translate midrange/long 2s into 3s and that's d wade
How many three do Garnett and Bosh hit? they sorta live in the midrange, and suck at 3's
Posted on 11/5/13 at 7:13 am to Fun Bunch
Adding a complete post game and a three point shot with increased mid range efficiency, would make him very good and almost unstoppable?
Well I'll be damned. That's quality analysis right there.
Well I'll be damned. That's quality analysis right there.
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