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Posted on 8/2/15 at 6:53 pm to Marco Esquandolas
quote:
Use the Bellari as is first.
Understood. I really appreciate the help.
Posted on 8/3/15 at 4:50 am to Marco Esquandolas
I'll set a limit at 400-500 at most, including speakers.
I'll probably use headphones with it more than anything.
I'll probably use headphones with it more than anything.
Posted on 8/7/15 at 10:14 pm to Marco Esquandolas
I've had the Bellari hooked up for a couple of days now and I'm impressed. Definitely glad I didn't jump the gun on modifying the thing to death without even trying it out.
Posted on 8/7/15 at 11:01 pm to kizomich
If you want to spend money to upgrade, spend it on a good cartridge. I like the Sumiko Blue Point and Blue Point Evolution at $400 and $500 respectively--if you are using a 30 year old cart or a sub $100 cart, they will change how you hear every note that comes off the vinyl surface.
I can't stress enough to all the folks getting into vinyl the importance of spending a little extra dough on a nice cartridge up front. Doing this will really reveal the potential of the vinyl disk and you won't get bored with vinyl because the sound is dull or lifeless due to a cheap cartridge.
I have done A/B comparisons in real time on a number of occasions among many carts. Many audiophiles have turntables that allow multiple tonearms, so you can actually have up to 4 cart/needles on the record at once. All are run into a phono pre amp that also has multiple MC inputs, so you can switch between carts instantly (these are mega buck tables though). The neat thing is it allows one to really hear the differences instantly.
It is amazing the textures and layers of music that are revealed when you immediately switch the phono input from the $100 to the $700 to the $3000 to the $8000 cartridge.
You can get great performance when you get to the $400-700 cart range. It really does make a huge difference.
I can't stress enough to all the folks getting into vinyl the importance of spending a little extra dough on a nice cartridge up front. Doing this will really reveal the potential of the vinyl disk and you won't get bored with vinyl because the sound is dull or lifeless due to a cheap cartridge.
I have done A/B comparisons in real time on a number of occasions among many carts. Many audiophiles have turntables that allow multiple tonearms, so you can actually have up to 4 cart/needles on the record at once. All are run into a phono pre amp that also has multiple MC inputs, so you can switch between carts instantly (these are mega buck tables though). The neat thing is it allows one to really hear the differences instantly.
It is amazing the textures and layers of music that are revealed when you immediately switch the phono input from the $100 to the $700 to the $3000 to the $8000 cartridge.
You can get great performance when you get to the $400-700 cart range. It really does make a huge difference.
Posted on 8/7/15 at 11:11 pm to kizomich
Here are a few pics of some really high end 'tables that have multiple tonearms--each arm/cartridge is run into its own MC Phono input on a phono pre amp with multiple phono inputs.
2 arms...
3 arms...
4 arms
2 arms...
3 arms...
4 arms
Posted on 8/7/15 at 11:22 pm to CocoLoco
quote:
I'll set a limit at 400-500 at most, including speakers.
CocoLoco,
That's gonna be tough. A decent entry level turntable runs about $350...entry level bookshelf speakers are about $400...an entry level integrated amp or receiver will run about $400...an entry level phono pre amp will run about $150..
I am not being an audio elitist here, but anything less than that is not worth getting into vinyl as you will not only not hear it's virtues, but likely it will sound worse than an MP3.
If you want a complete system, including the ability to play vinyl and computer audio decently, you are looking at a minimum of $1200-$1500.
I wish I could help more here.
Posted on 8/8/15 at 12:19 am to Marco Esquandolas
Those turntables (should they even be called "tables"?) are a little beyond my level of commitment. It is fun to see what's out there. Engineering and craftsmanship are alive and well. You definitely know more about this than I do, but I've read that a good cartridge is always a good cartridge, assuming you replace the stylus when the time comes. I've also read that the Stanton 681EEE is pretty well regarded. Is neither true?
I can see spending $500 if it's that big a step up.
Posted on 8/8/15 at 8:08 am to Marco Esquandolas
Marco,
I recently bought an Audio Technica LP120 and am now looking for a new sound system to go with it. Any suggestions for a decent setup that will run me under $500 or so?
I recently bought an Audio Technica LP120 and am now looking for a new sound system to go with it. Any suggestions for a decent setup that will run me under $500 or so?
Posted on 8/8/15 at 6:17 pm to kizomich
I posted those pics of the 'tables just to show what a multiple arm table looks like--those three tables are in the $30k to $80k range!
Posted on 8/8/15 at 6:19 pm to Babu Bhatt
quote:
Marco, I recently bought an Audio Technica LP120 and am now looking for a new sound system to go with it. Any suggestions for a decent setup that will run me under $500 or so?
Read the last 2 pages--I cant build a complete system for $500.
Posted on 8/9/15 at 1:03 pm to Marco Esquandolas
quote:
I am not being an audio elitist here, but anything less than that is not worth getting into vinyl as you will not only not hear it's virtues, but likely it will sound worse than an MP3.
Yes you are.
Posted on 8/9/15 at 1:17 pm to Funky Tide 8
an old man once told me..."it ain't braggin' if you can do it"...
So there's that.
So there's that.
This post was edited on 8/9/15 at 1:18 pm
Posted on 8/9/15 at 7:37 pm to CocoLoco
quote:
I'll set a limit at 400-500 at most, including speakers. I'll probably use headphones with it more than anything.
As far as headphones go, get AKG k240s. They have been studio standards for years.
I'm a big fan of Boston Speakers, they sound as good as many speakers at a much higher price point.
Boston
For turntable and amp, you will get the most bang for your buck by going with vintage equipment. 70s early 80s at the latest. You can't go wrong with old Marantz, Pioneer, Kenwood, Technics, ect..........
This post was edited on 8/9/15 at 7:41 pm
Posted on 8/10/15 at 8:21 am to Marco Esquandolas
quote:
an old man once told me..."it ain't braggin' if you can do it"...
So there's that.
Hey man, own it. You genuinely impress with your audio knowledge, and the ins and outs. You're like our personal audio guru.
Posted on 8/10/15 at 9:25 am to Marco Esquandolas
quote:
I cant build a complete system for $500.
Puh-lease. Not everybody needs a $5,000 setup! He said "decent" setup, not top of the line. I'm a vintage Marantz guy, as you probably know. He should be able to get a decent 22xx series receiver (2230, 2245, etc) and a some Marantz Imperial speakers for under $500. He could also get one of the newer Yamaha receivers ( LINK), which run about $500, and add some vintage speakers for under $150.
Posted on 8/10/15 at 5:20 pm to SUB
SUB, please understand that when people ask me for advice building an audio system, I will always steer them into new gear. As many of my previous posts in this very thread state, I don't recommend vintage gear to noobies. Especially tube gear. There are just too many unknown variables for people that don't understand the innards of a piece of electronics. I also have come to believe that most folks that sell gear on eBay that aren't audio dealers really don't understand the real condition of their gear either. Most 30+ year old amps need to have all the capacitors replaced--sure it will produce sound, but not to what it is capeable of. So replacing caps and bringing a vintage piece up to original spec (cleaning all the potentionometers so they don't krackle when you turn them, and replacing all capacitors) by a certified tech will run about $200 (if you want it to sound its best).
That being said, no, I can't build a new complete audio system (receiver, speakers, turntable, digital source/DAC, and cables that is "decent" for $500.
You replied...
Nowhere in my previous post did I say someone needed to spend $5000 (which isn't even remotely close to "top of the line"). I don't think that $1200 (the amount I stated in earlier post) is unreasonable for a complete new system with analog and digital sources, power, and speakers.
With your recommendations, you are already at $650 and still don't have a turntable or a DAC or cables (which the poster I replied to said he wanted--a complete system). Add those features and you would right at or very close to the $1200 which I originally said should be a minimum. He wanted all of that for $500--hard to do.
Go to Crutchfield's website and find a receiver, turntable, DAC, speakers, and cables for under $1200--even that is a tall order.
I have gone great lengths to provide solid information throughout this entire thread knowing that many of you guys are starving college kids--I've been there myself. I spend a good bit of time researching, for people here, gear that I normally don't play around with, as I passed the entry level 25 years ago. I do it because I am passionate about the hobby and hope that maybe one or two people who feel the same way can learn a thing or two and not fall into some of the audio snake oil I did throughout my quest for audio nirvana.
If someone posts that same request (a complete system for $500) on the forums of AudioGon or AudioKarma, I promise that 99% of the tens of thousands of members there wouldn't even respond to it. I have at least given some guidance and recommendations here and minimum amounts to get started.
Now, if I was retired and had all day to scour the net and really dig deep and spend a few weeks searching, well maybe--and even that would be tough (again, most vintage gear will need some work to bring back up to spec).
Also, there is a threshold for vinyl. Can you get a Crosby record player for $150? Sure. But it will not even come close to revealing the virtues that vinyl offers. This is why I recommend if you can't at least start off with something on the level of a U-Turn or Project Debut 3 table (again, new gear only), then you may want to reconsider jumping into vinyl. I believe anything less is wasting money as it will not reveal vinyl's attributes.
SUB...I am glad to see that you have discovered the beauty of classic Marantz--Saul Marantz was a pioneer back in the early days of hi-fi, and his circuit designs still are closely mimicked today by a few of the extreme high end designers.
Be careful--the upgrade bug is contagious in the vintage world too!
That being said, no, I can't build a new complete audio system (receiver, speakers, turntable, digital source/DAC, and cables that is "decent" for $500.
You replied...
quote:
Puh-lease. Not everybody needs a $5,000 setup! He said "decent" setup, not top of the line. I'm a vintage Marantz guy, as you probably know. He should be able to get a decent 22xx series receiver (2230, 2245, etc) and a some Marantz Imperial speakers for under $500. He could also get one of the newer Yamaha receivers ( LINK), which run about $500, and add some vintage speakers for under $150.
Nowhere in my previous post did I say someone needed to spend $5000 (which isn't even remotely close to "top of the line"). I don't think that $1200 (the amount I stated in earlier post) is unreasonable for a complete new system with analog and digital sources, power, and speakers.
With your recommendations, you are already at $650 and still don't have a turntable or a DAC or cables (which the poster I replied to said he wanted--a complete system). Add those features and you would right at or very close to the $1200 which I originally said should be a minimum. He wanted all of that for $500--hard to do.
Go to Crutchfield's website and find a receiver, turntable, DAC, speakers, and cables for under $1200--even that is a tall order.
I have gone great lengths to provide solid information throughout this entire thread knowing that many of you guys are starving college kids--I've been there myself. I spend a good bit of time researching, for people here, gear that I normally don't play around with, as I passed the entry level 25 years ago. I do it because I am passionate about the hobby and hope that maybe one or two people who feel the same way can learn a thing or two and not fall into some of the audio snake oil I did throughout my quest for audio nirvana.
If someone posts that same request (a complete system for $500) on the forums of AudioGon or AudioKarma, I promise that 99% of the tens of thousands of members there wouldn't even respond to it. I have at least given some guidance and recommendations here and minimum amounts to get started.
Now, if I was retired and had all day to scour the net and really dig deep and spend a few weeks searching, well maybe--and even that would be tough (again, most vintage gear will need some work to bring back up to spec).
Also, there is a threshold for vinyl. Can you get a Crosby record player for $150? Sure. But it will not even come close to revealing the virtues that vinyl offers. This is why I recommend if you can't at least start off with something on the level of a U-Turn or Project Debut 3 table (again, new gear only), then you may want to reconsider jumping into vinyl. I believe anything less is wasting money as it will not reveal vinyl's attributes.
SUB...I am glad to see that you have discovered the beauty of classic Marantz--Saul Marantz was a pioneer back in the early days of hi-fi, and his circuit designs still are closely mimicked today by a few of the extreme high end designers.
Be careful--the upgrade bug is contagious in the vintage world too!
Posted on 8/10/15 at 6:12 pm to SUB
quote:
Is the bulb out on the channel indicator...
SUB, all bulbs seem to be working. The "4-CHAN" lights up when you turn the selector knob over to one of the 3 4-CHAN modes. This receiver belonged to a guy that was a retired engineer and really cared for it--it even had service tickets from McCann electronics in Metairie from the '80's and '90's!
The particle board casing was a little dry rot--so I ditched it. But it never lived outside the case, so the actual chassis of the receiver is truly mint--not a single nick.
It now has me looking for a 22xx with a little more power. Most of the really vintage gear I have is McIntosh, Fisher, and Sansui--don't write off Sansui, they made some fine gear.
I am also a sucker for the Sony ES line from the late '80's--the stuff with the rosewood side panels--absolute gorgeous gear. The TA-N55 ES and TA-N80 ES amps are workhorses. I have a pair of the TA-N55 ES amps that operate flawlessly--I bought them new in 1989. It made for an impressive "stack" when you had the matching DAT deck, CD player, cassette deck, tuner, pre amp, and MiniDisc deck.
Posted on 8/10/15 at 10:39 pm to kizomich
quote:
I've also read that the Stanton 681EEE is pretty well regarded. Is neither true?
I wouldn't recommend it...here's why...
Cartridges usually fall into 2 main categories, Moving Magnet (MM), and Moving Coil (MC).
Moving magnets have a stable field coil with a magnet assembly that "moves" around the coil. They are usually high output (.1-.15mv). They are typically found in the $30-$400 range. This type of cartridge often times allows for a stylus (diamond tip and cantilever--alo known as a needle) replacement by sliding the old out and sliding a new one in. Doing this, however, is at the expense of alignment accuracy. This is the type of cart you will find on most pre packaged plug and play tables.
Moving Coil is the other most common cart. These normally range from about $500 to $20k. The opposite mechanics take place here...the magnet assembly is fixed while the coil "moves" over the magnet. Usually these carts need a little more pre amplification as they are generally low output (.02-..06mv). The importance of a good clean phono pre amp come into play here as it needs to amplify sometimes as much as 5x what a moving magnet phono stage needs to amplify--and it needs to do so with a very quiet noise floor--so you will see that MC pre amps tend to cost a bit more than the MM phono pre amps.
Moving Coil cartridges tend to deliver a more delicate and voluptuous sound. Their styli are usually not replaceable by the end user--they usually require being sent back to the manufacturer for a "re-tip"--usually about 30% of original cart cost. The cantilevers are usually mounted with extreme precision within the motor (magnet assembly) of the cartridge.
Then there is the 3rd type of cartridge, called a Moving Iron (MI). To my knowledge, the Stanton cart is a MI. To get a detailed explanation of how a Moving Iron operates, Google the website for SoundSmith Cartridges. They, along with Grado, are the only 2 main cart manufacturers besides Stanton that still make Moving Iron.
These carts may have low or high output, so you need to know this before getting one as your phono stage (phono pre amp) will need to be able to amplify it enough to produce a line level (4mv).
Since my poor explanation of carts has probably utterly confused you, I will try to find and post the link to a Stereophile magazine article that goes in depth the differences among the 3 cartridge types.
As far as your table goes, if you are willing to invest the $500 or so in a new cart, I would without hesitation recommend getting into an entry level MC cart. The difference in tone and smoothness is immediately noticeable throughout the entire audible bandwidth when you jump up to a MC cart.
Now, I am not saying that there are not many good MM carts out ther--there are many. But when you jump into MC, you usually jump onto a higher teir of sound.
Posted on 8/10/15 at 10:52 pm to Marco Esquandolas
THIS EXPLANATION OF MM vs. MC may better explain. It is from The Needle Doctor's site.
THIS EXPLAINS A MOVING IRON CARTRIDGE
THIS EXPLAINS A MOVING IRON CARTRIDGE
This post was edited on 8/10/15 at 10:56 pm
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