re: What is the greatest thing to ever happen to music?

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think this is a false dichotomy, or at least it's an incomplete analogy. Because while I agree with this assessment wholeheartedly, you don't mention that Zep towers just as high, if not higher (depending who you ask) in the debts that rock bands owe to their predecessors—not just hair metal.

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I don't think it's as false a dichotomy as you would like. The Stones, simply, influenced anybody who calls themselves "rock", which cuts across a ton of genres. Heck, they undoubtably influenced Zep a ton. Zep might have some more oturight confirmations of influence by the bands themselves, but the Stones are so fundamental an influence its just silly to acknowledge them. No one really calls the Stones an influence because it has no meaning -- that merely acknowledges you play guitar in a rock band.

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It's not fair to limit them to the blues scope.

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No, not entirely. But it goes back to your claim of mimickery. If anyone is the mimic, it's Zep.

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Works like LZIII and Physical Graffiti represent the ends of a rope that are distant from one another. The former is damn-near pastoral in its folksy melancholy (with exceptions like The Immigrant Song and Since I've Been Loving You) and the latter is a sprawling double album scrapheap of experimental jams and genre hopping.

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And Physical Graffiti is a great album and IMNSHO the greatest thing they ever did. You're not gonna catch me ripping on the album at all. I do think that's when they showed the best of themselves, though I don't think its anywhere near as experimental as you claim, save Kashmir.

The Stones influence was not narrow, it was incredibly wide. Hell, I think they have influence over hip hop, particularly in the imagery of what is a rock star. That's our fundamental disagreement -- I view the Stones influence as wide and significant, and Zeppelin's as narrow. And I find the Stones to be far more ambitious musically than Zep.

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And to get back to this, I think it's good you've isolated this early. I think you and Baloo will find ways to look upon RS more favorably and likewise myself with LZ.

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This is true. Zeppelin is a band I feel like I outgrew. I liked them a ton when I was 15, but as an adult, I don't feel the same connection to their music, except for some of their later work. Zeppelin obviously didn't change, I did. But I can barely listen to II anymore, it just doesn't hook me in at all. And a lot of IV is cringe inducing to me now (though that opening of Rock n Roll still gets me going).

Though I will still defend The Ocean as the single greatest riff in rock n roll history.

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Works like LZIII and Physical Graffiti

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It's good you mention those 2 albums b/c they are the only two I still listen to and actually appreciate.

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a sprawling double album scrapheap of experimental jams and genre hopping.

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Physical Graffiti is the album where they formed their own record label and had more liberties. But to be honest, Physical graffiti is fusing Rolling Stones with Black Sabbath. I see you mention linking arms but I think I see it as being influenced or homage. Listen to The Rover and tell me that's not something off Black Sabbath Vol 4. I could go on in depth more if I had time but I do like Physical Graffiti and realize how different each tune is.

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But, I'm willing to sit here and rhetorically shell the hell out of each other all day

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I could too bc I'm not backing down from RS b/c I think Beggars Banquet, Let it Bleed, Sticky Fingers, & Exile is the pinnacle of Rock-n-Roll in my head. I cannot think of another band that comes close to putting out 4 albums that great in that timeframe. I would extend it to Goat Head's Soup but I only like the second side of that one.

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And I find the Stones to be far more ambitious musically than Zep.

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You lost credibility with this statement. Sorry.

God, I love Chess Records. Howlin' Wolf is a near deity in my eyes. He's just so damn good.

I like IRS records.

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I can think of another band ::gulp: but now we're flirting with the ignition of a one of those terrible Beatles/Rolling Stones debates

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Yeah, and the difference between the two really is a matter of personal taste. While Zep and the Stones are essentially playing in the same pool, the Beatles and Stones exist in parallel galaxies. They are close, but really they exist different spaces. I do think Beatles/Stones is the Great Rock Debate.

Though to spice it up, what about the Kinks? They have the same run of amazing albums (Face to Face, Something Else, Village Green Preservation Society, Arthur, Lola v. Powerman and the Moneygoround) and I think they were the most innovative British invasion act (which is also why they were not as popular). Many people give the Velvet Underground credit for beginning "indie rock" or alternative, but I think you can trace it more accurately to the Kinks.

So, there you go. The Kinks are the greatest thing to happen to music.

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(Face to Face, Something Else, Village Green Preservation Society, Arthur, Lola v. Powerman and the Moneygoround)

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Actually I like their 80's work especially Word of Mouth album. I had a friend that really liked the Kinks. I think he wore out their live album Come Dancing.

Honestly, that's the reason you will find them great because the Kinks, unlike the other British Invasion bands, are not horribly overexposed to us. You can actually approach them with fresh ears - which you could never do with, say, the Who.

The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society is one of the greatest pop records of all-time. Very underrated amongst the general public.