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re: Serious Star Wars Continuity Question
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:33 pm to JabarkusRussell
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:33 pm to JabarkusRussell
Well, when your wife dies pregnant, I guess you just assume that the unborn children are dead too.
0
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:36 pm to elprez00
quote:
Why wasn't Vader like, "WTF? You told me she died, dick? Now I have a son? Anything else you want to tell me?
Vader probably just accepted that the Emperor was a manipulating POS, and that ends justified the means in regards to the position they were in.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:36 pm to elprez00
quote:
but I don't get why he wasn't pissed in Empire
He WAS pissed. I think you missed the subtext of Empire and ROTJ. Vader and the Emperor were both trying to turn Luke and dispose of the other.
ETA: the irony is Luke turns Vader and Vader kills the Emperor.
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 2:39 pm
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:38 pm to elprez00
quote:
It happened to be a convenient plot device once the new trilogy came out. Vader should have been furious once he found out his son was alive.
Yeah, but what's Vader going to do about it? He can't kill the Emperor himself without certain death to himself. His best bet was to train his own son, who isn't a crippled cyborg, into doing it with him. Vader needed to be somewhat patient.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:39 pm to gjackx
quote:
Seriously though, Padme dying like she did was pretty crappy. Why didn't he just kill her, post child-birth? They could have written that in there somehow...PG-13 to the fullest!
Yeah, I would have probably brought up an abortion due to what Anakin has turned into, and Vader snaps, force chokes her, and murders her for it. That's what it should have been instead of her dying of a broken heart.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:40 pm to OMLandshark
A better question is: if Killing the emperor turned Luke to the dark side, how did killing the emperor turn Vader to the light?
I have my own opinion: self-sacrifice vs. hate, just think it's an interesting observation.
I have my own opinion: self-sacrifice vs. hate, just think it's an interesting observation.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:42 pm to elprez00
quote:
To imply that Vader was pissed and trying to convert Luke to overthrow the Emperor completely negates the throneroom scene in Jedi. If Vader was mad at the Emperor, why the final duel? Why threaten to corrupt his sister? Why not turn around at that point and go, "Really? Not only do you lie to me about my son, but my daughter as well?"
The Emperor isn't all knowing. I don't think the Emperor ever knew of Luke being Anakin's son until the Death Star explosion, and he still didn't know about Leia.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:46 pm to OMLandshark
There are some really good points being made. It's a shame I don't think George Lucas thought about it this in depth at all.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:46 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
The Emperor isn't all knowing. I don't think the Emperor ever knew of Luke being Anakin's son until the Death Star explosion, and he still didn't know about Leia.
He knew about Anakin before the Jedi (the details are there). I'm thinking he knew about Luke as well (post prequel anyway). The implied plan was to wait until they were older to train them so they would be easier to turn.
The info above comes from scripts/original versions of novels.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:46 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
He WAS pissed. I think you missed the subtext of Empire and ROTJ. Vader and the Emperor were both trying to turn Luke and dispose of the other.
But only in the context of the saga. If were just talking original trilogy, Vader's entire spiel in Empire was just a ruse to try to get Luke to join up. Remember, at the time of release, everyone was convinced Vader was lying until Jedi came out.
Also, read my previous post. Vader tells Luke "It's too late for me," implying that he doesn't have a choice. Vader fights Luke in the throne room, then searches for a trigger to set him off, finally hitting it with a threat against Leia. That doesn't strike me as someone trying to kill their boss.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:48 pm to elprez00
quote:
But only in the context of the saga. If were just talking original trilogy
Your question stems from something that happened in the prequels.
Do you not see a problem here?
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:48 pm to Dr RC
quote:
Vader knew about Luke before ESB. He was specifically searching for him on Hoth.
By that point, I don't think Vader cared that he was lied to. Even if he found that Padme was alive, he would have been as dismissive as he was when he found he had a daughter - just another tool to use to try to convert his prize son.
quote:
Vader WAS pissed.
He wanted Luke to join him to overthrow the Emperor
All this. Vader hoped to overthrow the Emperor all along in the original series.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:52 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
The Emperor isn't all knowing. I don't think the Emperor ever knew of Luke being Anakin's son until the Death Star explosion, and he still didn't know about Leia.
He definitely knew about him before Empire. And I took his reaction in ROTS to Vader's fury when he told him he killed her as a known lie to intensify his rage. It's not like Vader could call Obi Wan and ask him what happened to the kids.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:53 pm to elprez00
quote:Wat?
Remember, at the time of release, everyone was convinced Vader was lying until Jedi came out.
It is pretty much confirmed at the end of the movie.
quote:I always took that to mean he gave in long ago to the dark side and sees no other way to live. Not that he is a slave to the emperor.
Vader tells Luke "It's too late for me," implying that he doesn't have a choice.
quote:He was never going to kill Luke in the throne room. Even when he set him off he just started backing up and taking it.
Vader fights Luke in the throne room, then searches for a trigger to set him off, finally hitting it with a threat against Leia. That doesn't strike me as someone trying to kill their boss.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:54 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Your question stems from something that happened in the prequels.
Do you not see a problem here?
Thats the point. The plot devices work perfectly in the context of the original trilogy. When placed into context with the backstory we learn in the prequels, it completely changes the meaning of those devices.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:55 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
He knew about Anakin before the Jedi (the details are there). I'm thinking he knew about Luke as well (post prequel anyway). The implied plan was to wait until they were older to train them so they would be easier to turn.
The info above comes from scripts/original versions of novels.
I don't buy it. Why not have them abducted instead of waiting until their 20s? Its much easier to force your views on someone who is very, very young than someone who has had certain beliefs instilled on them for decades.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 2:59 pm to alajones
quote:
All this. Vader hoped to overthrow the Emperor all along in the original series.
I dont know about that. Vader makes no other references to Luke joining him after the scene in Cloud City. Hes very adamant about the Emperor in Jedi when talking to Luke.
Either A: Vader was using it as a ruse to get Luke to turn, or B: being overly ambitious and changed his mind somewhere in between.
Even the entire throneroom scene is a ruse to find a trigger for Luke to turn.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 3:07 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
I don't buy it. Why not have them abducted instead of waiting until their 20s? Its much easier to force your views on someone who is very, very young than someone who has had certain beliefs instilled on them for decades.
Maybe I am out of my league here, but in Phantom Menace we learn how dangerous it is to train older individuals to be Jedi. Therefore, since that happened before the original trilogy with Luke, where we also learn training too late in the Jedi ways is considered dangerous, the groundwork seems to be pretty well laid that the longer you wait to train the force, the better chance it is used for evil instead of good.
I agree that in the real world, the sooner the better regardless of what direction you are trying to brainwash, but its seems like Star Wars established this process in both Luke and Anakin's instances.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 3:21 pm to Teddy Ruxpin
quote:
One more thing illustrating why this works for the original trilogy but not the prequels: In Jedi after Luke turns himself in, he and Vader are speaking on Endor and Luke tells him that he still feels the good in him. Vader responds "Its to late for me, my son." This implies that Vader doesn't have a choice.
That's actually one of my favorite scenes of the trilogy. For a moment, Vader shows his human side. He recognizes that Luke is trying to save him and he knows he's in too deep to turn back. He's killed countless Jedi, he's experienced the unyielding power and he's sacrificed much of his human self to the Dark Side.
The best part of that is after he switches back into Vader mode and hands Luke over to be transported to the Emperor, there is that long, lingering shot where Vader steps away and seemingly contemplates what he has just done.
It was incredible how much emotion and struggle could be derived from a plastic mask.
The music certainly helped.
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 4:10 pm
Posted on 5/6/13 at 3:22 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Yeah, I would have probably brought up an abortion due to what Anakin has turned into, and Vader snaps, force chokes her, and murders her for it.
What is this The Godfather?
Abortion in Star Wars?
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