re: KISS

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First of all, I like Creed a lot,

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To quote the AV Club:

ý"A lot of people hate Scott Stapp, mainly because he f*****g sucks. They hate how Creed combines the worst elements of grunge—humorlessness, pretension, hunger-dunger-dang over-singing, melodrama—with the worst parts of Christianity: self-righteousness, faux-piety, rank hypocrisy. They hate how the monobrowed Stapp looks like the lovechild of Billy Ray Cyrus and a caveman, and they hate his penchant for striking Jesus poses. But mostly, as I argued earlier in this paragraph, they hate him because he f*****g sucks."

I love that passage.

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I think you are really severely undervaluing the quality of songwriting.

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And I think you are severely overrating it. Though I do admire your passion for Hard Luck Woman. i think it's entirely misplaced passion, but it is passion nonetheless.

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KISS were great business people - not idiot pushovers who had their accountants steal everything by the time they were 29. That is a VIRTUE.

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First off, I absolutely agree about their business acumen. In fact, I've been arguing in favor of it since page one of this thread. I just find it funny that you take this hardline stance against anything except for what comes out of the speakers... unless of course it is something you like.

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Again, if you like what comes out of the speakers, then who gives a shite if it is "shamelessly cynical"? I mean, I get the idea that you don't like what's coming out of the speakers, but it shouldn't be BECAUSE of some perceived cynicism on the artists' end.

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No, it's the fact that it's so shamelessly cynical that the eventual end product is crap. I don't like what comes out of the speakers, and the reason it got to that point is because they don't care about creating "art", they are just moving units. This is a band that spends more time on its makeup than its songs.

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And Detroit Rock City is a remarkably stupid song.

That's a remarkably stupid statement.

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Really? You don't think this is remarkably stupid?

Movin' fast, down 95
I hit top speed but I'm still movin' much too slow
I feel so good, I'm so alive
I hear my song playin' on the radio
It goes

Get up
Everybody's gonna move their feet
Get down
Everybody's gonna leave their seat

Twelve o'clock, I gotta rock
There's a truck ahead, lights starin' at my eyes
Oh my God, no time to turn
I got to laugh 'cause I know I'm (gonna
die)
Why?

Get up
Everybody's gonna (leave there seat)
Get down

I'll stand by different strokes for different folks and everybody likes what they like. I'm cool with that, but I think some things we can come to critical consensus on. Those are remarkably stupid lyrics, even by the rather lenient standards of rock n roll.

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Songwriting.

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Which isn't very good. Really, I think we can establish that their lyrics are beyond stupid. And I think their riffs aren't that great. Also, the song structures are just boring. This is rock-by-numbers.

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I actually don't really like AC/DC. I think they are extremely over-rated.

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They are also pretty stupid, but awesome in every way. Angus Young's riffs are ridiculous.

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a)I'm asking how any of that would ever reach you. Just get a disc and spin it. Finito. You hear what's coming out of the speaker. You aren't FORCED to consume the "marketing" aspect.

b)I'm not sure it's fair to say that what goes on on stage is "marketing". I mean, shite, who doesn't go for a cool stage show? If that's the standard, then U2 is pure marketing hype.

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(a)Well, we don't live in that world. And if we did, Kiss never puts out a record. They don't get to iTunes on the merit of their songs. they got their on their image. I'm aware of their image and arketing because I'm alive and aware of the world around me. Their marketing is sort of hard to miss.

(b) We're not talking about live shows, per se. We're talking about selling an image over the music. U2 does have an elaborate live show, and I find that equally obnoxious. I used to like their records (I don't think they've had a good album in a decade), but I hate their live shows. I don't enjoy them at all. Too much spectacle, not enough music.

Not that I'm inherently against spectacle. I find Peter Gabriel's live show to be extremely theatrical, but it works in service of the music. But this goes back to me preferring a club show. Those big stadium extravaganzas I find to be extremely silly.

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Angus Young's riffs are ridiculous.

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Jeez, you must know very little about AC/DC.

If you've ever read anything where Angus speaks about AC/DC, he always says that Malcolm (yeah, the other guitarist who plays rhythm) is the heart of the group!

Getting back to Kiss, though, you seriously think a song like "I Want You" is terrible? Nothing about the riffs or the guitar solo sounds cool to you?

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Angus Young's riffs are ridiculous.




Jeez, you must know very little about AC/DC.

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I'm pretty sure he meant ridiculous in a good way.

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I'm pretty sure he meant ridiculous in a good way.

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He did - but he doesn't even know which person in AC/DC came up with the riffs that are so superior to anything Kiss ever did!

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dirtbag lsu

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my 1st concert in 1977 when I saw KISS in Shreveport

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My first concert was KISS in Shreveport in 1979. Hirsh Memorial Coliseum.

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First off, I absolutely agree about their business acumen. In fact, I've been arguing in favor of it since page one of this thread. I just find it funny that you take this hardline stance against anything except for what comes out of the speakers... unless of course it is something you like.

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I'm not saying that that's a reason to like their music. I'm saying that if you care about that, you should realize it's good and not bad. For me it has literally zero affect on the sound coming out of the speakers.

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Really? You don't think this is remarkably stupid?

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Doesn't look great in print, but I think it has great emotional effect in the song itself. It's about a fricking fan of theirs excited about going to a KISS concert and then dying en route. Do you think said fan spoke like Shakespeare or spoke like a teenager smoking a joint?

But since you asked:

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Get up
Everybody's gonna move their feet
Get down
Everybody's gonna leave their seat

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Yes, I think that is a clever little turn of phrase.

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I'm cool with that, but I think some things we can come to critical consensus on. Those are remarkably stupid lyrics, even by the rather lenient standards of rock n roll.

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Which brings us back to another point of discussion between us - I'm almost literally indifferent to lyrics.

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Which isn't very good. Really, I think we can establish that their lyrics are beyond stupid. And I think their riffs aren't that great. Also, the song structures are just boring. This is rock-by-numbers.

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Have you ever heard "She"? One of the greatest riffs/grooves ever. And less than 1% of your "music industry" people could write such a thing.

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a)Well, we don't live in that world. And if we did, Kiss never puts out a record. They don't get to iTunes on the merit of their songs. they got their on their image. I'm aware of their image and arketing because I'm alive and aware of the world around me. Their marketing is sort of hard to miss.

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So what we've found out is that bands just getting off the ground promote themselves and try to have a unique look? Groundbreaking. And also criticism-worthy.

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We're talking about selling an image over the music

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I'm just not sure what that means. I listen to their music. I don't watch their image. Songs come up on my computer or my mp3 player and I hear them and like them. Period.

What's really, truly obnoxious is that you can't even find it in your heart to acknowledge that Rock n Roll All Nite is a legitimately worthy anthemic rock classic. You can't even bring yourself to say "you know, I hate KISS and everything they stand for, but they DID write that one song that seemed like it was destined to be written that everyone likes for what it is - a party song".

At the end of the day, that's what a great song is to me - one that feels like it not only EXISTED, bit it HAD to exist and just had to wait to be DISCOVERED by the artist. I really don't like U2, but "One" is one of those songs. Ditto Back in Black.

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"you know, I hate KISS and everything they stand for, but they DID write that one song that seemed like it was destined to be written that everyone likes for what it is - a party song".

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But that wouldn't be a true statement. You want me to say that, but I don't think any onf their songs were destined to be aything. And I don't think their songs are very good, even as party songs.

One of my favorite things about you, JT, as that you keep bringing up the context of the band while at the same time you argue context doesn't matter. You pretend like you're the only person on earth who is blissfully unaware of any piece of music's context in culture, rip those who note its context, and then feel free to point out its context when it suits your needs.

But my absolutle favorite is that you say "only the song matters" but then you throw out nearly half of the song when you say lyrics don't matter. You argue from a strict point of view - just the music, ma'am - but then throw out a good portion of the song as irrelevant.

I also enjoy that you believe that music criticism in and of itself is invalid, yet you continue to argue about it, which is itself a form of music criticism.

The tangle of contradictions is truly stunning. I find it absolutely fascinating. But, mostly, I like that you argue from a strict "whatever comes out of the speakers" standpoint, and you somehow like Creed and Kiss.

I do enjoy how wound up people are getting over the fact I think Kiss sucks. It's a band aimed at 12 year olds. Hey, when I was 12, I liked Thundercats. But then I became an adult and realized that show sucks, too.

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And I don't think their songs are very good, even as party songs.

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That just seems absurd, given the worldwide knowledge and popularity of that one tune. It clearly IS good as a party song whether you like it or not. There's plenty of songs that I don't care for myself that fit that bill (the Dr. Who song, for one).

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One of my favorite things about you, JT, as that you keep bringing up the context of the band while at the same time you argue context doesn't matter. You pretend like you're the only person on earth who is blissfully unaware of any piece of music's context in culture, rip those who note its context, and then feel free to point out its context when it suits your needs.

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I'm not sure what "context" you're talking about.

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But my absolutle favorite is that you say "only the song matters" but then you throw out nearly half of the song when you say lyrics don't matter. You argue from a strict point of view - just the music, ma'am - but then throw out a good portion of the song as irrelevant.

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Well, I think that is just a legitimate disagreement. I think the melody of the vocals is 0% of the relevance and the lyrics is maybe some part of the other 10%. Lyrics are HALF of a song? That seems very strange to me. What are we to make of instrumental music? Is it half dead on arrival?

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But, mostly, I like that you argue from a strict "whatever comes out of the speakers" standpoint, and you somehow like Creed and Kiss.

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Sounds cute when you say it, but in essence all you are arguing is that your tastes are the only true tastes.

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I do enjoy how wound up people are getting over the fact I think Kiss sucks. It's a band aimed at 12 year olds. Hey, when I was 12, I liked Thundercats. But then I became an adult and realized that show sucks, too.

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I got into KISS when I was 20.

ETA: I'd also like to point out who the frick cares who it is "aimed" at. It could be aimed at infants in incubators for all I care. If it sounds enjoyable coming out of the speaker, then it's aimed at ME.

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If you don't like them, shut up and quit talking about them.

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If we all shut up about the things we like and didn't like and took it at that...then there would be no point for this board. Just saying.

I respect Kiss's place in music history, but at what point does touring with all that shite on become tedious and kind of a joke. It's like watching a bunch of drugged out, burned out musicians grasping and clawing to hold on to their 20's. Grow up and diversify yourself. If you wouldn't have blown most of your money on coke and god knows what else, you wouldn't have to embarrass yourself at the age of 50-60.