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re: GOT Book Readers: Jon Snow question
Posted on 4/20/15 at 9:39 am to OMLandshark
Posted on 4/20/15 at 9:39 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Doesn't make sense for him to have played Rhaegar and Aerys against each other
Meh. He was probably part of the conspiracy to move Aerys on to "King Emeritus" status, if that was even possible, in favor of Rhaegar - I mean EVERYONE wanted Rhaegar to be the king - until the Lyanna Stark thing. For inspiration, I think Martin drew upon the Helen of Troy story for this part.
In any event, Varys had a number of opportunities to have Viserys and Dany killed when they were children - I mean Illyrio is his boy. If he wanted them dead, they would have been dead. He was keeping them behind glass until he needed to put them into play, IMHO. He may know about R+L=J - he may not, but knowing (without anyone else knowing) meant he didn't have to do anything until it becomes necessary.
This post was edited on 4/20/15 at 9:39 am
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Posted on 4/20/15 at 9:39 am to OMLandshark
Again, it's been awhile since I've read it, so forgive me if I make a mistake but:
Who would be keeping tabs? The Kingsguard left KL with Rhaegar. From there, only Rhaegar would have authority to position them.
Yes, but it's not know whether Ned told Ashara Dayne where Author Dayne was killed and why.
Maybe. Or she isn't dead. Or she killed herself because Ned refused her and decided to return to Catelyn.
I'm just not sure as many people know of the circumstances of the TOJ as assumed. And if they knowledge is only held by Ned and Reed, then Tywin wouldn't have anyway of knowing.
quote:
Surely to god they would have kept tabs on where each and every member of the Kingsguard was.
Who would be keeping tabs? The Kingsguard left KL with Rhaegar. From there, only Rhaegar would have authority to position them.
quote:
Plus 5 members of Ned's party was killed at the tower, plus his sister. And they certainly knew that Arthur Dayne was there, since it's well known Ned returned Dawn to Starfall where Ashara Dayne killed herself.
Yes, but it's not know whether Ned told Ashara Dayne where Author Dayne was killed and why.
quote:
If I had to take a guess why Ashara killed herself, when the Tyrells and Redwynes were defeated at Storm's End, Ashara knew where her brother was and why he was there, and sent a raven to Ned in order to get her brother spared. When Ned more or less came alone to the Tower of Joy instead of an army at his back, that is why Arthur had a sad smile on his face, knowing that Ashara sent him the message on where to find him, but also that he meant to do this honorably. When Ned returned with Dawn, she felt as if she directly killed her brother, and the man she loved killed her brother, so she killed herself.
Maybe. Or she isn't dead. Or she killed herself because Ned refused her and decided to return to Catelyn.
I'm just not sure as many people know of the circumstances of the TOJ as assumed. And if they knowledge is only held by Ned and Reed, then Tywin wouldn't have anyway of knowing.
This post was edited on 4/20/15 at 9:41 am
Posted on 4/20/15 at 9:43 am to OMLandshark
quote:
I'm betting that Rhaegar made a scroll, with his, each of the Kingsguard who were present, and Lyanna's signatures legitimizing any child that may be born
I agree, just curious as to where this scroll is and when it will show up. Really interested to see how Jon is revealed. I think he has to claim a dragon to prove himself in the eyes of the people. I want to believe Bran and Bloodraven will have a hand in it, but so many readers believe that Bloodraven is with the Others. Him helping Jon serves no purpose in this case.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 9:47 am to Mr. Wayne
quote:
I agree, just curious as to where this scroll is and when it will show up.
It's with Arthur Dayne, who is alive and living in Greywater Watch. DAMNIT.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 9:51 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
In any event, Varys had a number of opportunities to have Viserys and Dany killed when they were children - I mean Illyrio is his boy. If he wanted them dead, they would have been dead. He was keeping them behind glass until he needed to put them into play, IMHO. He may know about R+L=J - he may not, but knowing (without anyone else knowing) meant he didn't have to do anything until it becomes necessary.
Well, they didn't want them dead at the time. They were trying to keep Robert's attention on the Targaryens they didn't care about instead of even considering Aegon's survival.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 9:56 am to Mr. Wayne
quote:
I agree, just curious as to where this scroll is
shite the way this is going little finger has it
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:00 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
Who would be keeping tabs? The Kingsguard left KL with Rhaegar. From there, only Rhaegar would have authority to position them.
Sure Rhaegar would be the only person who for sure knew where each and every member of the Kingsguard was at the time of the Trident, but people would still be keeping tallies on where each Kingsguard was last seen and they'd hunt them down. If say Arthur Dayne escaped with Prince Viserys, this would be a problem that they had to deal with. It's not as if once they sacked King's Landing that they forgot about the missing 3 members of the Kingsguard. They'd hunt them down for sure.
quote:
Yes, but it's not know whether Ned told Ashara Dayne where Author Dayne was killed and why.
We know he returned Dawn (even Cersei knows this)
quote:
I'm just not sure as many people know of the circumstances of the TOJ as assumed. And if they knowledge is only held by Ned and Reed, then Tywin wouldn't have anyway of knowing.
There are some things highly suspicious about the Tower of Joy, like how did Ned know they were there? He knew he'd find Rhaegar's rightful heir there since he didn't come with an entire army. I just think Tywin should have been shrewd and calculating enough to figure this out.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:04 am to Mr. Wayne
quote:
I agree, just curious as to where this scroll is and when it will show up. Really interested to see how Jon is revealed. I think he has to claim a dragon to prove himself in the eyes of the people. I want to believe Bran and Bloodraven will have a hand in it, but so many readers believe that Bloodraven is with the Others. Him helping Jon serves no purpose in this case.
I believe that Howland Reed and Maege Mormont will come to the Wall and present Jon with two scrolls: One sealed with a grey direwolf and the other sealed with a black three-headed dragon. I don't think Jon will really come to terms with it until Ramsay arrives at the Wall and duels with him.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:04 am to OMLandshark
quote:
There are some things highly suspicious about the Tower of Joy, like how did Ned know they were there?
This is a good question. Rhaegar tells him before Robert kills him?
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:08 am to SetTheMood
quote:
It's with Arthur Dayne, who is alive and living in Greywater Watch. DAMNIT.
Ned Stark was the Usurper's best friend. No matter how much he liked or respected Ned, he could not risk handing over the rightful king to Robert. In fact, I think if Robert had not said the "dragon spawn" comment and Lyanna not died, Ned may have very well have told Robert of Jon's existence. I don't think before that moment that Ned ever thought that Robert would harm children, but that quickly changed his mind and decided to protect Jon from Robert.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:12 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
The Kingsguard left KL with Rhaegar.
Aerys II's Kingsguard during Robert's Rebellion:
Dayne - was with Rhaegar at the Tower of Joy
Oswell Whent - ditto
Hightower - Lord Commander, he went to the ToJ to retrieve Rhaegar when things went badly. He was ordered to stay at ToJ with Dayne and Whent while Rhaegar took command of the army in the field.
Llewyn Martell - Killed at the Trident with Rhaegar
Barristan Selmy - Wounded, but survived the Battle at the Trident
Jonothor Darry - Killed at the Trident.
Gwayne Gaunt - Killed at Duskendale (The Defiance)
Jaime Lannister - was left to guard Aerys II - killed him, instead, for reasons many of us know, and earned the title Kingslayer
Ser Harlan Grandison had died earlier and Jaime was his replacement.
This post was edited on 4/20/15 at 10:14 am
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:12 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
This is a good question. Rhaegar tells him before Robert kills him?
Why would Rhaegar do that or have the time to do it? Not like Rhaegar could go marching into Ned's tent without being captured or killed.
Ashara is the most likely candidate for tipping off Ned. I think there was more than 2 survivors at the Tower of Joy, since it is mentioned that THEY had to pull Ned off of Lyanna's body. Well, that implies there is someone else there besides Howland Reed. I believe that other person is Willa, Jon's supposed wet nurse and the person Edric Dayne claims is Jon's mother. She is a servant for House Dayne, and I think as soon as they realized Lyanna was pregnant, Arthur went to Starfall to fetch a wet nurse, and Ashara found out what was going on.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:14 am to OMLandshark
Ned would not have killed his own nephew, which would have happened had he gone to Robert and said, "ok, we got this kid, he's a Targ, but he's totally cool."
Arthur Dayne made Ned swear, with Lyanna's blessing, to take Jon into his own custody, and claim him as a bastard. At that point, Robert's Rebellion was nearly over, with only King's Landing holding out. Dayne would have known that the child would be hunted to the ends of the earth had he not gone into "protective custody." Allowing JS to be raised by Ned as his bastard provided the best opportunity for JS to live a normal life.
I WANT TO BELIEVE.
Arthur Dayne made Ned swear, with Lyanna's blessing, to take Jon into his own custody, and claim him as a bastard. At that point, Robert's Rebellion was nearly over, with only King's Landing holding out. Dayne would have known that the child would be hunted to the ends of the earth had he not gone into "protective custody." Allowing JS to be raised by Ned as his bastard provided the best opportunity for JS to live a normal life.
I WANT TO BELIEVE.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:17 am to OMLandshark
quote:
She is a servant for House Dayne, and I think as soon as they realized Lyanna was pregnant, Arthur went to Starfall to fetch a wet nurse, and Ashara found out what was going on.
Think this is valid analysis without further evidence.
I don't think Wylla would be pulling Ned off Lyanna's body. That's food for thought, as Howland Reed is a little guy (as are all the Crannogmen) - could Reed and a woman actually physically pulled Ned away, or was this more metaphorical - they pulled "at" him and made him realize that she was dead, the baby was alive and they had to do something.
Otherwise, it does sound like someone else was spared (like Arthur Dayne, perhaps). But, there's just no clear evidence of any survivors other than Stark and Reed. We're even conjecturing about a possible baby who might be Jon Snow. Everything else is hint, innuendo and supposition.
This post was edited on 4/20/15 at 10:23 am
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:22 am to SetTheMood
quote:
Arthur Dayne made Ned swear, with Lyanna's blessing, to take Jon into his own custody, and claim him as a bastard. At that point, Robert's Rebellion was nearly over, with only King's Landing holding out. Dayne would have known that the child would be hunted to the ends of the earth had he not gone into "protective custody." Allowing JS to be raised by Ned as his bastard provided the best opportunity for JS to live a normal life.
Does this support a theory that Dayne lives, yet? And that is why Dawn has not been passed on to a new "Sword of the Morning"? Is he perhaps, incognito, in the Golden Company?
Martin says that Howland Reed will appear in the novels at some point. If he doesn't explain it, no one ever will, IMHO. Even this Wylla person has passed away in the intervening years.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 10:23 am to SetTheMood
quote:
Ned would not have killed his own nephew, which would have happened had he gone to Robert and said, "ok, we got this kid, he's a Targ, but he's totally cool."
I think Ned's POV on Robert before the sack would be that he'd allow the Targaryen kids to take the Black, but whenever he said the "dragon spawn" comment, I don't think Ned ever viewed Robert the same way again. If he had punished Tywin and Jaime for what they did, and didn't get that promise out of Lyanna, then I think Ned would have told Robert in private who Jon's parents really were and that when he came of age, he'd certainly take up the Black. After the sack though, that clearly wasn't an option for Ned.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 11:37 am to weagle99
Off topic, but where he hell is Rickon Stark?
Posted on 4/20/15 at 11:40 am to Palo Gaucho
Theoretically Skagos, an island that is home to cannibals.
Posted on 4/20/15 at 11:41 am to Palo Gaucho
quote:
Off topic, but where he hell is Rickon Stark?
Skagos or Last Hearth.
(Small chance White Harbor and Manderly is just trolling Davos, but unlikely, IMHO. I think Skagos may have been to thrown other folks off, but if the Umbers have been sheltering Osha and Rickon, then they wouldn't tell anyone and would all die to protect him. I just can't imagine anyone thinking it would be safe for Osha and Rickon to go to Skagos without a large escort force. So, maybe they weren't able to get to Last Hearth.
I do think Manderly either has them or sincerely believes they are on Skagos. I think the chaos in the north has interrupted lines of communication between the great houses of the North - but the revelation that Rickon is alive and free would likely unite most, possibly excepting the Karstarks, Dustins and Rhyswells.
If the Greatjon ever gets free, the united Umbers and Manderlys will likely go against Roose openly.
This post was edited on 4/20/15 at 11:54 am
Posted on 4/20/15 at 11:43 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Why would Rhaegar do that or have the time to do it?
Time is unknown.
But the why is pretty obvious. GRRM constantly references the study habits of Rhaegar and how his demeanor rapidly changed after learning about "the prince that was promised."
But what if Rhaegar started to believe that he wasn't the one who was promised but rather his offspring? It's conceivable that he would get word to Ned knowing that Ned would do anything and everything to protect Lyanna's child from Robert if Rhaegar lost the war.
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