re: GoT = Deus ex Machina Factory

Benjens whole thing in the north was getting Bran around. Show dropped the ball since book Coldhands was there whole time for Sam and Bran. That was bad writing but qualifies because the show fricked up the source material.

Stannis we saw receive the message for aid and he answered the call.

Drogon came in by himself and let loose. He loves his mama and was allowed to free roam. Which we knew.

I don't recall the corpse in Castle Black being touched or raised by a Walker. That was never shown. What was shown previously was several thousand men being raised without being touched by a White Walker.

Further, if the vampire approach is wrong and they would have been trotting back a corpse, how was the drunk going to rise again? Why burn the body?

The bottom line: Jon CLEARLY and firmly believed his dead companion would rise because he was killed by a wight - so why didn't he believe the same exact thing moments before when another companion was attacked and killed by THE SAME EXACT WIGHT? A character's actions should be based on what THEY believe in the story, not based on convoluted plot details the writers failed to convey. Based on Jon's belief, they take the first corpse and return.

They were the very first part of the show was with a WW, which were kinda orcs before they got a better budget and it's band of wights take out a patrol.

It was a trap to get them in and draw out the Nights Watch which it did.

Mormont's great ranging.

The wights themselves are able to think but it's simple think. We've seen them problem solve and take initiative on their own.

Jon clearly thought Thoros would rise since they were beyond the wall in the presence of WW. One who brought back the dead at hardhome all at once.

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The bottom line: Jon CLEARLY and firmly believed his dead companion would rise because he was killed by a wight - so why didn't he believe the same exact thing moments before when another companion was attacked and killed by THE SAME EXACT WIGHT? A character's actions should be based on what THEY believe in the story, not based on convoluted plot details the writers failed to convey. Based on Jon's belief, they take the first corpse and return.

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This was never about getting a Wight, it was about a Dirty Dozen excursion. They set it up poorly and executed it poorly. But it still gave most of us what we wanted in the end. It's too bad so many people are too neurotic to have enjoyed it.

I'm starting to think that these books attracted people with OCD and now that everything isn't as tightly ordered as before some of you are starting to lose it. Fan service is a new phrase I've heard as much as Deus Ex Machina the last few weeks. I get that the show isn't doing the exact same thing it was doing at the beginning, but why is giving the fans what they want some majorly negative thing?

And from the sounds of it the real problem isn't GRRM or D&D, it's HBO not being willing to pay for as many episodes as they need to tell this story. Hardly anybody rips on HBO, it's all the fault of D&D. I don't understand how adding 7 more episodes wouldn't have been worth it for HBO.

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The problem is I think Dany waiting on the wall longingly for Jon was one of the outline bullet points they had to hit. How do you hit that without Jon both being in mortal danger and separated from the group? I do think him getting tackled was one threat too many, but if they all fly back on Drogon you lose a little something in the nephew aunt romance.

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For me, that isn't a good enough reason- other people i am sure feel differently. Its still a good show and story, but when I become invested I start paying more attention and digging deeper and some parts of the show don't hold up under that scrutiny. Which is fine - the show and series just don't quite hold up to the promise of their early seasons for me.

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Does this bother anyone else?

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no because I'm not an idiot

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How many times is this plot device used in this story? Jon has been miraculously saved at the last minute 3 times alone.

Does this bother anyone else?

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Is this really different from most shows with action/drama?

Right off the top of my head, I just finished a rewatch of Breaking Bad...Walt almost died about 437 times.

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Deus ex machina

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...second only to 'cuck' in the term most misused and misunderstood on this board.

And I think you have TWD and GoT mixed up. I've never had the impression that wights have any infectious properties in any way.

I think the idea that "only those killed by a WW can be raised" is based on us witnessing them raising a lot of fresh kills (ep 1, Hardhome). But this raising is not due to cause of death, IMO, but rather because these bodies are the preferred vessels: not yet rotting and can absorb more damage than old corpses and skeletons. Of course, the WW will raise resort to them when needed, as we have seen (Hold the Door).

The "rules" as I see them: any dead body, physically intact enough to be raised and in the vicinity of/seen/sensed by a WW, can and will be raised based on the discretion of said WW - It's a voluntary process, not automatic. I have no idea how the distance from target affects initial raising, other than it must to be North of The Wall. Since dragons seem to require the touch of the NK, it must require vast amounts of power/ magic to raise them....similar to what is required to create WWs out of live humans (Craster's bastards)

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How many times is this plot device used in this story? Jon has been miraculously saved at the last minute 3 times alone.

Does this bother anyone else?

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Not quite as much as the apologists for it annoy me. We all like the show well enough to still watch (it isn't Dexter).

And who didn't know the term since they were in middle school? Has this kind of basic term been cut out of our medial education systems? I don't think it has been. I think people just have a knee jerk predisposition to attack an opinion they don't like by attacking something about the person expressing the opinion (rather than dispute whether something qualifies by definition you attack the person by asserting they don't even understand the definition).

IMO the criticism is legitimate for at least some examples. Stannis rescuing Jon probably qualifies not because he arrived to defend the North from wildlings, but because of the timing of that rescue. Benjen's rescue was poorly done and unnecessary at a minimum... unless there is a reveal that the NK decided to let that happen (because of some crazy Bran is NK reveal later on that gives credence to a bond between the NK and Jon). The moving around of characters in the last show (at least) was forced and unconvincing. I thought the "go capture a wight" plot was also idiotic for reasons that have already been dwelled upon at length. I think those flaws have also played a role with the annoyance many felt with the Benjen rescue on top of all of the other twists that pulled the viewer out of their enjoyment of the show.

Anyway, I can give a pass for the battle of the bastards because it does seem plausible for tactical reasons to wait until the last minute to flank and overrun Bolton forces. IMO the resurrection of Jon clearly does not qualify because we had seen characters be resurrected before and Jon is the metaphor for Ice and Fire, a person of importance enough to be worth bringing back.