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re: Godfather question that's always bothered me
Posted on 4/10/13 at 2:46 pm to Kafka
Posted on 4/10/13 at 2:46 pm to Kafka
This was the passage from the end of the Sicilian that was Michae';s first lesson as he goes back to America to work for the family:
He (The Don) pointed a finger at his son. “You wanted to learn,” he said. “Now listen to me. A man’s first duty is to keep himself alive. Then comes what everyone calls honor. This dishonor, as you call it, I willingly take upon myself. I did it to save your life as you once took on dishonor to save mine. You would never have left Sicily alive without Don Croce’s protection. So be it. Do you want to be a hero like Guiliano, a legend? And dead? I love him as the son of my dear friends, but I do not envy him his fame. You are alive and he is dead. Always remember that and live your life not to be a hero but to remain alive. With time, heroes seem a little foolish.
It was the first lesson Michael received from his father and the one he learned best. It was to color his future life, persuade him to make terrible decisions he could never have dreamed of making before. It changed his perception of honor and his awe of heroism. It helped him to survive, but it made him unhappy. For despite the fact that his father did not envy Guiliano (a true hero), Michael did.
He (The Don) pointed a finger at his son. “You wanted to learn,” he said. “Now listen to me. A man’s first duty is to keep himself alive. Then comes what everyone calls honor. This dishonor, as you call it, I willingly take upon myself. I did it to save your life as you once took on dishonor to save mine. You would never have left Sicily alive without Don Croce’s protection. So be it. Do you want to be a hero like Guiliano, a legend? And dead? I love him as the son of my dear friends, but I do not envy him his fame. You are alive and he is dead. Always remember that and live your life not to be a hero but to remain alive. With time, heroes seem a little foolish.
It was the first lesson Michael received from his father and the one he learned best. It was to color his future life, persuade him to make terrible decisions he could never have dreamed of making before. It changed his perception of honor and his awe of heroism. It helped him to survive, but it made him unhappy. For despite the fact that his father did not envy Guiliano (a true hero), Michael did.
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Posted on 4/10/13 at 2:55 pm to Kafka
quote:
Around this time he met Kelly O'Rourke, who became his girlfriend. Luca was incredibly possesive of her (nearly killing Tom Hagen for sleeping with her) and sometimes beat her up, but also had a strange, deep affection for her.
However, when she became pregnant, Luca attempted to force her to have an abortion, which she refused. On the day of his son's birth, he forced the midwife, Filomena under pain of death, to hurl his own son into a furnace, an act for which she never forgave herself, describing him as an unholy demon that night. He claimed that "None of that race should live." It was unknown whether he meant that it was because the child was half Irish, born of a prostitute, or that it was his child, and felt that he was doing the world a favor by removing his bloodline from it. Filomena was at first reluctant, but Luca slashed her arm with a knife and then she obliged and tossed it in the furnace after she did this she fled from the house sobbing. Filomena later left for Sicily, where she was employed by Lionele Tommasino. Kelly died that evening.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 3:37 pm to TigerintheNO
My bad. I just read the GF novel last year, and don't recall that part (the Tom-Kelly connection) at all.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 4:22 pm to Kafka
quote:
there remains a reference to it when Michael contemptuously tells Tom he can accept the hotel chain job offer and take along "your wife, your children, and your mistress".
He turned em down...... What's he supposed to do? Tell Michael about every job offer he turns down?
Posted on 4/10/13 at 4:33 pm to White Roach
quote:
Refresh my memory, please... What happened to Clemenza in the book/movie? I vaguely remember them mentioning him in one of the 50s scenes in Part II, something to the effect of "If Clemenza was alive, God rest his soul", and it's been 30 years since I read the book.
Clemenza "died of a heart attack" between Part 1 and Part 2 because actor Richard Castellano made unreasonable demands of Coppola during the run-up to the second film.
When Frank Pentangeli shows up at the First Communion at the start of Godfather Part 2, he's wearing a black armband and talking about how Clemenza just died of a heart attack, which Willie Cicci implies was actually a killing by the Rosato Brothers.
The actor who did Pentangeli did a wonderful performance, but it would have meant a lot more for the picture to have Clemenza in that role considering his part in the first movie and Bruno Kirby's portrayal of young Clemenza in the flashback scenes.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 5:37 pm to teke184
quote:
The actor who did Pentangeli did a wonderful performance, but it would have meant a lot more for the picture to have Clemenza in that role considering his part in the first movie and Bruno Kirby's portrayal of young Clemenza in the flashback scenes.
Absolutely, I think it's clear it was supposed to be Clemenza. In I when he is teaching Michael to shot, he makes a reference to stopping Hilter at Munich, making him out as kind of a history buff. In II when Hagen visits Pentangeli Hagan talks about him knowing history and politics, and Franks says he still reads a lot.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 5:45 pm to H-Town Tiger
I always thought Fredo was half retard
Posted on 4/10/13 at 6:30 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
reference to stopping Hilter at Munich, making him out as kind of a history buff
I don't know if it is history, the movie was set right after WWII. The final scene in Godfather II was on Dec. 7, 1941.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 7:40 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Just some punk boxer from Philly...
ISWYDT.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 7:42 pm to Methuselah
quote:
Only Michael was fairly well adjusted till the toll of the family business got to him.
Michael lost his soul when Apollonia was murdered.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 7:47 pm to Tchefuncte Tiger
quote:
quote:
Only Michael was fairly well adjusted till the toll of the family business got to him.
Michael lost his soul when Apollonia was murdered
The key moment in the film is when Michael justifies killing Capt McCluskey by saying, "It's not personal Sonny. It's strictly business".
Posted on 4/10/13 at 7:47 pm to Tiger Ryno
quote:
well its not like they could kill her off..I mean she is the director's sister.
They killed off the director's daughter in the non-existent Godfather III.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 7:51 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
Btw: Fredo was gay.
So why did Moe Greene tell Michael that Fredo was "banging cocktail waitresses two at a time?"
Posted on 4/10/13 at 7:58 pm to Kafka
quote:
non-canonical
The newer books are still worth the read though.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 8:02 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
I don't know if it is history
ETA: I should have said it shows him into history and politics
Clemenza says to Michael, you got to stop these things at the begining, like the shoulda stopped Hitler at Munich. Now I realize that was contemporary for them, but he was using a current example in a general sense.
Hagen says to Pentangeli at the prison that you were always into politics, history,. I think that is clearly something he would have said to Clemenza. The scene from I establishes it imo.
quote:
The final scene in Godfather II was on Dec. 7, 1941.
Rude of the Germans to bomb Pearl Harbor on Vito's birthday.
This post was edited on 4/10/13 at 8:07 pm
Posted on 4/10/13 at 8:10 pm to Tchefuncte Tiger
quote:
Michael lost his soul when Apollonia was murdered.
I kige this. McCluskey was just a gangster with a badge. There was no more dishonor in killing him than there was in killing Solozzo.
Michael wasn't supposed to be a mafioso. Both Vito and Michael wanted Michael to be "legitimate". The war with the Tattaglias kept that from happening. THen Michael tried to start over in Nevada and become involved with legitimate industries, only to discover that the "respectable" world was dirtier than the Mafia.
Posted on 4/11/13 at 12:36 am to H-Town Tiger
Posted on 4/11/13 at 2:42 am to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Michael wasn't supposed to be a mafioso. Both Vito and Michael wanted Michael to be "legitimate". The war with the Tattaglias kept that from happening. THen Michael tried to start over in Nevada and become involved with legitimate industries, only to discover that the "respectable" world was dirtier than the Mafia.
If Michael had gone the route Vito mapped out for him, he would have been more respectable. He wouldn't have been a better person, just channeling his ruthlessness into more socially acceptable avenues.
One of the follow-on books talks about his Marine Corps experience a little bit. He was at Tarawa (if you accept the author's imagination). So he was no innocent college kid when it came to bloodshed.
Posted on 4/11/13 at 4:59 am to Jim Rockford
How many books are there?
Posted on 4/11/13 at 5:07 am to CCT
quote:I don't remember. Some of them were written by another guy picked by the original author when he knew he wouldn't live long enough to write all of them. Don't remember the guy's name.
How many books are there?
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