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re: Godfather question that's always bothered me
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:04 am to Baloo
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:04 am to Baloo
quote:This is a perfect summation. Michael is the only protagonist who undergoes the hero change in reverse. At least I can't think of any main characters who do that. Not like a fall from grace, tragic hero thing.
Don't you talk about Fredo! He's probably the most "normal" of the kids, and I like that of the 3 of 4 screwed up kids, you exclude the total sociopath. Mike is pretty much pure evil. He's the godfather without that love of family thing.
Fredo has jealousy issues, sure. He's just not a criminal at heart. He's a good natured guy who just wants to go fishing with the kids. He had no place in the criminal underworld. Fredo nurtured the goodness in himself, and only really saw the good in others. Unfortunately, he lived in reality in which most people had little to no goodness.
Fredo is the tragic hero of the first two films.
Soeaking of Godfather questions, why does Michael look up Kate after being gone for so long? Is it convenience? That's the only answer I ever came up with. He shows up after years and wants to marry her because he is ready to start a family. And she is the most convenient option.
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Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:04 am to Tiger Ryno
I was surprised to discover that Talia Shire was nominated for Best Supporting Actress for her role as Connie in The Godfather Part II. I just don't remember Connie having more than 5 minutes of screen time in that film.
Do I remember this wrong?
Do I remember this wrong?
This post was edited on 4/10/13 at 10:05 am
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:06 am to TigerRad
quote:
There are two Godfather movies.
Yeah, the third is based on a play, not the book.
Fredo has no structural strength. That's why he got in deep in Vegas. Sat by while the Don was getting shot up. Oh fredo, fredo fredo fredo...
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:11 am to Baloo
quote:
Fredo has jealousy issues, sure. He's just not a criminal at heart. He's a good natured guy who just wants to go fishing with the kids. He had no place in the criminal underworld. Fredo nurtured the goodness in himself, and only really saw the good in others. Unfortunately, he lived in reality in which most people had little to no goodness.
Fredo had the talent to run the family's hotels and casinos, which worked in favor of the family's transition to legitimate enterprises, but he had ambitions higher than his abilities dictated.
He wanted to be the Don after Sonny died, but Michael got that instead.
He wanted to be influential in the family's inner circle, but Tom Hagen got that role instead.
He pretty much wanted the stars and it never quite worked out for him, such as him marrying moviestar Deanna Dunn, whose marriage to him was a disaster if Godfather 2 is any sign.
Also, if you want to argue about who the Don's "best" kid is, you could make a solid argument for Tom Hagen, who is the adopted one, alongside Michael, who was rebellious.
He was the one who followed the Don's recommendation to become a lawyer, as a lawyer was a better asset to their business than a leg-breaker like Sonny, married an Italian girl and was faithful to her, etc.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:13 am to Tactical1
quote:
I just don't remember Connie having more than 5 minutes of screen time in that film.
I only remember two scenes with her.
One was of her and her fiancee being turned down by Michael at Anthony's first communion, which resulted in a bunch of whining about her father not being there.
The second was of her wanting Michael to forgive Fredo after their mother's death, which was after she pulled a total 180 from how she acted to start the film.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:21 am to teke184
My biggest question was what does the final scene of the Godfather 2 suppose to tell us? I understand that is sorta where the two stories marry
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:24 am to Dire Wolf
quote:That Michael has lost all humanity. It ends the series nicely IMO. As I previously opined, Michael undergoes the hero change in reverse. After he has his brother killed, it completes the change.
My biggest question was what does the final scene of the Godfather 2 suppose to tell us?
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:36 am to alajones
quote:
That Michael has lost all humanity. It ends the series nicely IMO. As I previously opined, Michael undergoes the hero change in reverse. After he has his brother killed, it completes the change.
It may be to bring home the point that, to Vito, the "Family" was a means to an end to supporting his family, while Michael ended up destroying his family to keep the "Family".
I think the idea of the Don's birthday party was to bring home how many people where there then (Sonny, Fredo, Tessio, Tom, Connie, Carlo, Mama, Michael, the Don, etc.) and then Michael being left with nothing in his Tahoe retreat in the 50s, as the only two of those people still alive are Michael and Connie.
It probably would have had a better effect if Clemenza had been in the movie, as Pentangeli was a stand-in for Clemenza, whom he had whacked to protect "the Family" in the 50s.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:37 am to Dire Wolf
That they were all dead except Tom and Clemenza.
Btw: Fredo was gay.
Btw: Fredo was gay.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 10:38 am to Dire Wolf
quote:
My biggest question was what does the final scene of the Godfather 2 suppose to tell us? I understand that is sorta where the two stories marry
I liked the idea that for a brief moment after Michael committed the ultimate sin, we are brought back to a place with this family before they were all elbow deep in blood.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 11:32 am to teke184
quote:
t may be to bring home the point that, to Vito, the "Family" was a means to an end to supporting his family, while Michael ended up destroying his family to keep the "Family".
Completely agree. When Vito said Family, he meant it. When Mike said Family, he meant Business.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 11:52 am to teke184
quote:
Also, if you want to argue about who the Don's "best" kid is, you could make a solid argument for Tom Hagen, who is the adopted one, alongside Michael, who was rebellious.
He was the one who followed the Don's recommendation to become a lawyer, as a lawyer was a better asset to their business than a leg-breaker like Sonny, married an Italian girl and was faithful to her, etc.
I don't think Tom was faithful to his wife.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 11:56 am to fbb
quote:
I don't think Tom was faithful to his wife.
I may be mis-remembering.
I know that Sonny was fricking anything that could accomodate his massive tool, that Fredo was doing cocktail waitresses two at a time and probably Moe Greene as well, etc.
The point being that the novel really helped emphasize how the adopted Irish kid, Tom, was the one who was the most dutiful kid out of an Italian family.
This post was edited on 4/10/13 at 11:57 am
Posted on 4/10/13 at 12:11 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
Carlos was Sonny's friend & he introduced them.
This. The ending of Godfather Part II explains a lot of things.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 12:25 pm to jsquardjj
quote:
Anyone ever read the Sicilian? The end of the book is where Michael goes home and talks to his father for the first time after hiding in Italy.
Never read it, but Michael hides in Sicily after he kills Sollozzo and McCloskey.
quote:
That they were all dead except Tom and Clemenza.
Do you mean not killed by Michael?
This post was edited on 4/10/13 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 4/10/13 at 12:32 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:quote:
That they were all dead except Tom and Clemenza.
Do you mean not killed by Michael?
Not all by Michael, but about half of them.
Sonny, the mother, and Vito died due to other reasons, natural or otherwise.
Tessio, Carlo, and Fredo were all killed due to Michael.
Michael had also alienated himself from Connie and Tom due to his handling of the family business in part 2.
Clemenza would have also appeared at the dinner and in place of Pentangeli in part 2 if not for Richard Castellano getting into a dick-measuring contest with Coppola. If he'd appeared, it would have been another person at that dinner which Michael had killed.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 1:55 pm to teke184
Refresh my memory, please... What happened to Clemenza in the book/movie? I vaguely remember them mentioning him in one of the 50s scenes in Part II, something to the effect of "If Clemenza was alive, God rest his soul", and it's been 30 years since I read the book.
Posted on 4/10/13 at 1:55 pm to fbb
quote:
I don't think Tom was faithful to his wife.
He wasn't, he slept with Luca's girlfriend/whore
Posted on 4/10/13 at 2:12 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
quote:
I don't think Tom was faithful to his wife.
He wasn't, he slept with Luca's girlfriend/whore
I don't think this is correct
In the original draft of the GFII script, Tom has an affair with Sonny's widow. This was cut from the film, although there remains a reference to it when Michael contemptuously tells Tom he can accept the hotel chain job offer and take along "your wife, your children, and your mistress".
Posted on 4/10/13 at 2:15 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
Fredo was gay
non-canonical
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