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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 7/6/13 at 2:03 pm to shinerfan
Posted on 7/6/13 at 2:03 pm to shinerfan
There's that story too, but I think that it was a ruse. Her body was never recovered and the story is flimsy. Plus, no version of that story (there are several) has Ashara being in love with a prince.
So, going with my theory (and I know that there are others with similar theories), Lyanna throws herself from the tower, they bring her broken body up to her bed, Ned arrives just before she dies. He swears to take care of her child. From the Wiki:
What if they passed off the rumor that Ashara had given birth to Ned's bastard to give a cover story for where Jon came from? And, let's say that Ashara's child had actually lived. Let's also say that the man who had "dishonored" her wasn't just any man. What if it was Aerys Targaryen?
So, going with my theory (and I know that there are others with similar theories), Lyanna throws herself from the tower, they bring her broken body up to her bed, Ned arrives just before she dies. He swears to take care of her child. From the Wiki:
quote:.
After the events of the Tower of Joy, Ned Stark went to Starfall to inform House Dayne of Ser Arthur's death and return to them his greatsword, Dawn. Ashara jumped from the top of one of the towers of Starfall, called the Palestone Sword, on the cliff atop the sea. Her body was never recovered.[2] After these events, Ned Stark returned to Winterfell with the infant Jon Snow, whom he claimed as his bastard son, refusing to name the child's mother. This sparked rumors that Ashara had been the mother of Stark's bastard[3], and that grief at learning that her lover had been responsible for her brother's death was the cause of her suicide.[1][2]
Ser Barristan Selmy believes that Ashara gave birth to a stillborn daughter. According to Selmy, a man dishonored her at Harrenhal during the tourney and got her with child. Selmy's account is ambiguous. In Selmy's account, it was grief at the death of her child, perhaps grief at the loss of the man who "dishonored" her or shame of the "dishonoring" that led to Ashara's suicide. Also, Selmy thinks that he could have prevented Ashara's suicide if she had known of his feelings for her; that he thinks would have led her to seek his aid instead of a Stark's aid.
What if they passed off the rumor that Ashara had given birth to Ned's bastard to give a cover story for where Jon came from? And, let's say that Ashara's child had actually lived. Let's also say that the man who had "dishonored" her wasn't just any man. What if it was Aerys Targaryen?
This post was edited on 7/6/13 at 3:41 pm
2
Posted on 7/6/13 at 2:58 pm to ffishstik
So...here's the full crackpot theory. It makes sense to me and explains multiple characters:
Ashara has given birth to what is essentially a Blackfyre, the bastard son of Aerys. Ned has the trueborn heir in Lyanna's son Aegon (if, as I believe, Rhaegar and Lyanna had secretly wed). Varys, being Varys, is aware of the goings on and comes to them at Starfall and concocts his master scheme. Targs are dropping like flies and the two children need protecting.
The first two stories that Varys puts out are that Ashara, not Lyanna, leapt to her death from a tower and that she and Ned were lovers. This allows for Ashara to disappear with her child, and gives Ned a story for where Aegon (Jon)came from. Varys enlists the help of Jon Connington, Rhaegar's best friend and Aery's HOTK. He tells Jon that the child that Ashara has is Rhaegar's son Aegon and that he must flee Westeros and keep him safe. Not sure, but Varys may not actually know which child is which himself and may believe that it is Aegon that he's sending with Connington. Posing as Septa Lemore, Ashara goes with him to help protect her son. Varys puts out the third story about Connington fleeing Westeros in shame and Grief over his defeat and Rhaegar's death, which is partly true.
That leaves Ned in Westeros with the true Aegon and a decent cover story. Aegon remains at Starfall and is wet nursed by Wylla until Ned is ready to return to Winterfell. Ned comes up with the name "Jon Snow", possibly "Jon" from the involvement with Connington.
I have a ton of other references that actually support this theory, including the irony of Jon Snow's decision to swap Mance's child with Gilly's to protect the true "prince".
Ashara has given birth to what is essentially a Blackfyre, the bastard son of Aerys. Ned has the trueborn heir in Lyanna's son Aegon (if, as I believe, Rhaegar and Lyanna had secretly wed). Varys, being Varys, is aware of the goings on and comes to them at Starfall and concocts his master scheme. Targs are dropping like flies and the two children need protecting.
The first two stories that Varys puts out are that Ashara, not Lyanna, leapt to her death from a tower and that she and Ned were lovers. This allows for Ashara to disappear with her child, and gives Ned a story for where Aegon (Jon)came from. Varys enlists the help of Jon Connington, Rhaegar's best friend and Aery's HOTK. He tells Jon that the child that Ashara has is Rhaegar's son Aegon and that he must flee Westeros and keep him safe. Not sure, but Varys may not actually know which child is which himself and may believe that it is Aegon that he's sending with Connington. Posing as Septa Lemore, Ashara goes with him to help protect her son. Varys puts out the third story about Connington fleeing Westeros in shame and Grief over his defeat and Rhaegar's death, which is partly true.
That leaves Ned in Westeros with the true Aegon and a decent cover story. Aegon remains at Starfall and is wet nursed by Wylla until Ned is ready to return to Winterfell. Ned comes up with the name "Jon Snow", possibly "Jon" from the involvement with Connington.
I have a ton of other references that actually support this theory, including the irony of Jon Snow's decision to swap Mance's child with Gilly's to protect the true "prince".
This post was edited on 7/6/13 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 7/6/13 at 3:14 pm to ffishstik
After further thought, I'm betting that Varys does believe that Ashara's child is Aegon. Ashara had purple eyes, and if Aerys is the father, then he would have obvious Targ traits. Jon, on the other hand, seems to have inherited his mother's looks. Also possible that he knows the truth, but believed that Griff would make a better claim when he grew up because he looked the part. It may even be possible that Varys' involvement was limited to "Young Griff" and that he doesn't know that John Snow is Aegon.
This post was edited on 7/6/13 at 4:02 pm
Posted on 7/6/13 at 3:30 pm to ffishstik
ffishstik= 
Great theory!
Great theory!
Posted on 7/6/13 at 5:05 pm to ladytiger118
I really don't see any reason why JonCon, Varys, and Ned would ever team up. Knowing what I know about JonCon and what I know about Varys and Rhaegar's relationship, I'm shocked that those two are actually collaborating. JonCon wouldn't have forgiven Ned for the Battle of the Bells, and surely Ned and Varys would have acted somewhat different towards each other if this was going on.
Posted on 7/6/13 at 7:49 pm to OMLandshark
I see what you mean, especially since Ned was loyal to Robert/fought on his side.
Ned hated the Lannisters for what they did and didn't speak to Robert for a while because of what happened to Elia's children. I don't think Ned was 'in' on a big secret baby Targ scheme but he certainly wanted to keep Jon safe (assuming R+L was real). Varys seemed fond of Ned in AGoT. Not buddies but he liked him.
Ned hated the Lannisters for what they did and didn't speak to Robert for a while because of what happened to Elia's children. I don't think Ned was 'in' on a big secret baby Targ scheme but he certainly wanted to keep Jon safe (assuming R+L was real). Varys seemed fond of Ned in AGoT. Not buddies but he liked him.
Posted on 7/6/13 at 9:52 pm to OMLandshark
Again, not sure if Varys was involved with or even aware of Jon Snow. BUT, the situation made for strange bedfellows. Ned would have had nothing to do with any of them, except he had to for the sake of keeping his promise to Lyanna. But looking at the facts of the story:
Ned was already in an odd situation in a Targ-friendly environment at Starfall with a child with ties to both the Targs and the Starks, and both sides would have wanted to protect the child.
We know that Varys, JonCon and Ilyrio were working together to hide Young Griff (in this theory, Ashara and Aery's son) because it's in the books.
I think that Ned would have done what he had to do to protect Lyanna's son and I'm guessing that Ashara would do the same for her own newborn. If Ashara pretended that her child was actually Aegon and that Ned had her son with him, then Ned would not have needed to be overly involved in the plot to get Ashara and her son out of Westeros. Also, if Varys and co. believed that the child with Ashara was the real Aegon, they would have had no reason to bother with Jon Snow afterward.
...and tried to help him. It was LF that screwed him over. Also, Ned spoke up against Robert in regards to killing Dany and her child; he wasn't interested in killing Targ babies.
Ned was already in an odd situation in a Targ-friendly environment at Starfall with a child with ties to both the Targs and the Starks, and both sides would have wanted to protect the child.
We know that Varys, JonCon and Ilyrio were working together to hide Young Griff (in this theory, Ashara and Aery's son) because it's in the books.
I think that Ned would have done what he had to do to protect Lyanna's son and I'm guessing that Ashara would do the same for her own newborn. If Ashara pretended that her child was actually Aegon and that Ned had her son with him, then Ned would not have needed to be overly involved in the plot to get Ashara and her son out of Westeros. Also, if Varys and co. believed that the child with Ashara was the real Aegon, they would have had no reason to bother with Jon Snow afterward.
quote:
Varys seemed fond of Ned in AGoT. Not buddies but he liked him.
...and tried to help him. It was LF that screwed him over. Also, Ned spoke up against Robert in regards to killing Dany and her child; he wasn't interested in killing Targ babies.
This post was edited on 7/6/13 at 10:01 pm
Posted on 7/7/13 at 12:55 pm to ffishstik
I Knew You Were Hodor
Hodor (In the Air Tonight)
Hodor Kills Joffrey
My Name is Hodor
Hodor (In the Air Tonight)
Hodor Kills Joffrey
My Name is Hodor
This post was edited on 7/7/13 at 12:58 pm
Posted on 7/7/13 at 2:07 pm to ffishstik
quote:
Ser Barristan Selmy believes that Ashara gave birth to a stillborn daughter. According to Selmy, a man dishonored her at Harrenhal during the tourney and got her with child.
Maybe it's just me, but I swore Selmy's account of the dishonor pointed to Brandon Stark, a known cocksman per Lady Dustin's (then recent) confession to Theon/Reek in the WF tombs.
Maybe just me again, but I'm lost on this R+L= Aegon thing. Are we calling Jon Snow "Aegon" as in Rhaegar named 2 kids the same name, or are we saying that Jon Snow is the actual Aegon who didn't get his head smashed at the Red Keep?
I am lost.
Posted on 7/7/13 at 3:44 pm to 19
quote:
Maybe just me again, but I'm lost on this R+L= Aegon thing. Are we calling Jon Snow "Aegon" as in Rhaegar named 2 kids the same name, or are we saying that Jon Snow is the actual Aegon who didn't get his head smashed at the Red Keep?
I am confused too...when people keep on saying Jon is "Aegon," Rhaegar had an Aegon with Elia Martell. I doubt that Rhaegar named both of his sons (assuming R+L=J did happen) the same name of Aegon.
Do they mean that Jon being "Aegon" is that he is the PtwP? I don't like it when people say he is THE "Aegon" because that would mean he isn't Lyanna's son if that makes sense. I could be wrong but I doubt that Rhaegar gave both his sons the same name.
Posted on 7/7/13 at 3:49 pm to ladytiger118
quote:
I am confused too...when people keep on saying Jon is "Aegon," Rhaegar had an Aegon with Elia Martell. I doubt that Rhaegar named both of his sons (assuming R+L=J did happen) the same name of Aegon.
Do they mean that Jon being "Aegon" is that he is the PtwP? I don't like it when people say he is THE "Aegon" because that would mean he isn't Lyanna's son if that makes sense. I could be wrong but I doubt that Rhaegar gave both his sons the same name.
With all the Jon Snow conspiracies going around and how he will be a head of the dragon, it would make me laugh a little if he died on the first ten pages of the next book.
Posted on 7/7/13 at 6:01 pm to Warfarer
I would be incredibly pissed if Jon died. Way worse than when Ned died. Ned served a purpose as a catalyst for the events to come. Jon's storyline, to me, had zero closure right now, and what's the fricking point of making him one of the main POV characters? I'd much rather him die when it makes sense. Dying right when winter is about to happen is a cheap shot by Martin. Plus no other main character POV died in their own chapter, except Cat, who was brought back to life.
Posted on 7/7/13 at 11:56 pm to ladytiger118
For the sake of clarity, I'll refrain from calling Jon Snow "Aegon". Í pulled that from Danys vision in the house of the undying of Rhaegar, the woman and the baby named Aegon. Rhaegar's line about the child's song being the Song of Ice and Fire makes no sense if the woman is Elia who's from Dorne which is freaking hot and not Lyanna, who is from the North.
There are lots of people named Aegon in the books and also examples of multiple people with the same name from the same family, particularly if the name is important to the family like Aegon with the Trags or Walder with the Freys. It's a little weird, but I could see Rhaegar naming his child by a different woman (the woman that he actually loved, no less) Aegon even if he already had a child by Elia with the same first name.
Of course, it could also have been an insignificant glance at the past, which wouldn't have been that insignificant to Dany since she never met Rhaegar.
Either way, I'll cease with calling Jon Snow anything other than Jon Snow. I'm still sticking with my Crackpot theory.
There are lots of people named Aegon in the books and also examples of multiple people with the same name from the same family, particularly if the name is important to the family like Aegon with the Trags or Walder with the Freys. It's a little weird, but I could see Rhaegar naming his child by a different woman (the woman that he actually loved, no less) Aegon even if he already had a child by Elia with the same first name.
Of course, it could also have been an insignificant glance at the past, which wouldn't have been that insignificant to Dany since she never met Rhaegar.
Either way, I'll cease with calling Jon Snow anything other than Jon Snow. I'm still sticking with my Crackpot theory.
Posted on 7/8/13 at 5:15 am to ffishstik
quote:
Of course, it could also have been an insignificant glance at the past, which wouldn't have been that insignificant to Dany since she never met Rhaegar.
Either way, I'll cease with calling Jon Snow anything other than Jon Snow. I'm still sticking with my Crackpot theory.
You do realize some her vision right before that one was an insignificant glance into the past, with her father giving the order to torch Kings Landing?
Not that it discredits your theory totally mind you, but I think you are taking a bit of a leap. I always took that vision to be Rhaegar and Elia, and when he says there must be another I think he was talking about Jon. I think he thought the three heads of the dragon would be his three children, and was just slightly wrong.
Of course Aegon could really be Aegon and not a bastard targ, and Aegon, Jon, and Dany could be the three heads.
I think Rhaegar naming two children born about a year apart the same exact name would be ridiculous as hell, and wouldn't fit Lyanna in the slightest. Why the heck would she agree to name her kid Aegon when Rhaegar already has a son named Aegon?
This post was edited on 7/8/13 at 5:16 am
Posted on 7/8/13 at 7:44 am to auyushu
Same here. I always thought it was Rhaegar and Elia because he says "there are 3 heads of the dragon." Knowing Elia's fragile health, it strongly hints at Jon Snow.
Speaking of Jon, I was reading the Jaime dream sequence chapter last night in ASoS (the one that makes him go back to get Brienne). I thought there were a lot of parallels to Jon's dream in GoT (Jon in the Winterfell crypts, Jaime below Casterly Rock's), and it made me think that somehow--may be crackpot--that Jaime could find out Jon Snow's parentage and want to try to protect him due to his own guilt/conflict about not helping Rhaegar, Elia, Rickard, Brandon during the Rebellion. Also because of the connection of Jaime being judged by the same Kingsguard men who were at the Tower of Joy.
Really wish they kept this dream sequence in the show. It's one of my favorite scenes I've read.
Speaking of Jon, I was reading the Jaime dream sequence chapter last night in ASoS (the one that makes him go back to get Brienne). I thought there were a lot of parallels to Jon's dream in GoT (Jon in the Winterfell crypts, Jaime below Casterly Rock's), and it made me think that somehow--may be crackpot--that Jaime could find out Jon Snow's parentage and want to try to protect him due to his own guilt/conflict about not helping Rhaegar, Elia, Rickard, Brandon during the Rebellion. Also because of the connection of Jaime being judged by the same Kingsguard men who were at the Tower of Joy.
Really wish they kept this dream sequence in the show. It's one of my favorite scenes I've read.
Posted on 7/8/13 at 10:21 am to ladytiger118
quote:
Of course Aegon could really be Aegon and not a bastard targ, and Aegon, Jon, and Dany could be the three heads.
I could see that. It's certainly less of a stretch.
Posted on 7/8/13 at 1:39 pm to ffishstik
I'm actually pulling for that scenario.
The Blackfyre conspiracy is juicy but seems like it would take a lot more developing.
The Blackfyre conspiracy is juicy but seems like it would take a lot more developing.
Posted on 7/8/13 at 1:54 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
Considering that Blackfyres aren't mentioned much in ASOIAF, they would need to develop them. Most of the Blackfyre knowledge is from Dunk and Egg readers.
This post was edited on 7/8/13 at 1:54 pm
Posted on 7/8/13 at 1:59 pm to ffishstik
quote:
Let's also say that the man who had "dishonored" her wasn't just any man. What if it was Aerys Targaryen?
My only issues with this is that it seems Selmy was suggesting that it was Brandon Stark (as others have said) was the one that "dishonored her".
And while I love me some Selmy, like a lot of POVs/opinions, it certainly makes you wonder just how "dishonored" she was. Maybe she was simply "dishonored" in Selmy's eyes because he was in love with her. Just a thought.
Posted on 7/8/13 at 2:02 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
My only issues with this is that it seems Selmy was suggesting that it was Brandon Stark (as others have said) was the one that "dishonored her".
And while I love me some Selmy, like a lot of POVs/opinions, it certainly makes you wonder just how "dishonored" she was. Maybe she was simply "dishonored" in Selmy's eyes because he was in love with her. Just a thought.
The whole Ashara Dayne mystery confuses me. Some say that Ned had a crush on her/had the secks with her, others say it was Brandon Stark instead, now people are saying Aerys?
I do wonder if Selmy is a reliable narrator. I know George has said that Sansa isn't a reliable narrator, so I wonder if Selmy is the same case.
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