re: Will there ever be a greater pitcher than Nolan Ryan in the modern era?

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Most overrated players:

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John Elway - yes
Nolan Ryan - yes
Derek Jeter - yes
Michael Jordan - no

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Most overrated players:

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John Elway - yes

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L O L.....................


You are an idiot...........

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This and his beat down of Robin Ventura are why, i think, Ryan gets so much praise from "John Q Fan".

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The guy had a sub 3 ERA, 200+ K and led the league in whip at age 44.

K'd 300+ in 239 IP as a 42 year old

Pitchers these days are lucky if they pitch past 30, much less pitch past 30 in dominant fashion

I don't care if anyone calls him one of the best, but you will never see a guy that old be that good. In any sport

People love Nolan...but there are a lot of good articles out there about "putting Ryan in perspective" despite his K's (longevity) along with Ryan holds the record for walking the most batters in a career with 2,795 (longevity and wildness).

Nolan was not a maestro like Koufax or Pedro.

He was rock and fire and really was a walk machine his first 10 years.

Clemens was fueled by PEDs

Favre didn't play well into his 40s

Paige was a long time ago


Jagr is a good one

Randy Johnson > Nolan Ryan

Better SO/9innings, way better win%, more Cy Young's, similar wins & era

If you want to go to advanced stats, Johnson kills him in WAR, WAA, and every other adv stat just about


Johnson did it all in less games, less seasons and during the steroid era

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those other pussies would have had their cute little numbers vastly destroyed had they pitched till age 46.

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Johnson had more wins than Ryan in his 40s despite one less season and won Cy Young awards age 35,36,37,38, 40

Johnson retired at 45 despite having a winning record every season of his 40s

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Most overrated players:

John Elway - yes

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When God created the perfect QB, he created Elway.

Thick, muscular, nimble, fast as hell and rocket arm.

Oh and he was also clutch.

(Don't bring up Super Bowls, his team never gave him a chance.

Elway dragged those sorry-arse teams to those Super Bowls...Dan Reeves would play conservative and then tell Elway to win it in the 4th quarter of all their regular season games.)

Elway taking the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls before he won two later in the late 90's...

Would be like Favre taking the Falcons in the early 90's to 3 straight Super Bowls.

Brady has had some great teams...Montana.

I can't think of another QB who had more sorry arse teams than John Elway.

And he still got to the promiseland.

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(Don't bring up Super Bowls, his team never gave him a chance.

Elway dragged those sorry-arse teams to those Super Bowls...Dan Reeves would play conservative and then tell Elway to win it in the 4th quarter of all their regular season games.)

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The 1986 defense was 9th in yards given up, 9th in sacks, 5th in rushing yards. Offensively, Sammy Winder probably had his best year. 14 TDs, 800 rushing yards, and 26 receptions. Also, fullback Gerald Willhite added 8 TD, 365 rushing yards, and 64 receptions. This was probably Elway's weakest team that went to the Super Bowl, but it did have some talent in a very weak AFC.

1987 defense was top 10 in points given up(7th), yards given up(9th), turnovers(3rd), passing yards given up(5th), QB rating(3rd). I will give him credit here. The rushing game wasnt great, and Vance Johnson was just an above average #1 receiver.

1989 defense was 1st in points given up, 3rd in yards, 2nd in turnovers, 3rd in passing yards, 3rd in QB rating, 4th in sacks, 7th in rushing yards per attempt. Lets not forget that he also had a 1000 yard rusher, and a 100 yard receiver.

To say he had no talent in those three years would be absurd though. The 1989 team was very good, maybe great in that era. The 87 team was good, not as good as 89, but good. The 86 team would be the only one where you could argue that he didnt have a lot of talent around him.

Personally, I dont think it was Elway's amazing play that got his teams to "overachieve." Its the fact that during that decade the AFC was terrible. No real teams of note came from that decade, and in the NFC you had juggernauts in San Francisco, Chicago, New York, and Washington.

I understand your stats.

We could have a long conversation about that.

But theres a reason...and offensively philosophy - which was a punting and field position philosophy.

If your main goal is not to score TDs but just punt inside the 5 yard line...sure - you are going to have great D stats.

BUt you are going to have crappy O stats.

And you are going to put your QB always in bad situations.

I don't know how old you are...but it's famous in sports history that Elway wanted to be traded away from Dan Reeves because he always put him in bad situations and really philosophy of football.

Dan Reeves took advantage of Elway. He put all his energy into the D and then told Elway...save us at the end.

(I'm not kidding, you talk to former players and they say,"The Drive" was what Reeves thought would be normal.)