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re: Why didnt Kevin Love play in the 4th quarter tonight?
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:00 am to buckeye_vol
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:00 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
Your hypothesis is inherently flawed and easily falsified.
Not really. Hypothesis are done by observation, this is the second big who is taking a blow on his rep due to the fact that LeBron occupies almost too much space on the floor that relegates other star players to the perimter.
KLove now is just supposed hang out in the corner? Dude is way more talented than that. LeBron should working from the elbows, not the top of the key playing point.
Guys who pound the rock pointing to where everyone should be stifle any kind of ball flow in the offense.
Cleveland should be running what San Antonio runs, but Bron needs the ball in his hands.
When you are a great teammate, you don't need the rock.
2
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:21 am to RonBurgundy
quote:
Not really. Hypothesis are done by observation, this is the second big who is taking a blow on his rep due to the fact that LeBron occupies almost too much space on the floor that relegates other star players to the perimter.
KLove now is just supposed hang out in the corner? Dude is way more talented than that. LeBron should working from the elbows, not the top of the key playing point.
Guys who pound the rock pointing to where everyone should be stifle any kind of ball flow in the offense.
Cleveland should be running what San Antonio runs, but Bron needs the ball in his hands.
When you are a great teammate, you don't need the rock.
Except the data show that most players get more efficient when they play with Lebron and less efficient when he leaves. Besides every metric indicates that the teams are substantially better with Lebron on the court than off, so obviously it is working. Sure when players like Bosh and Love go from the first option to the third, their raw numbers will drop quite a a bit. That would happen anywhere with any team. Trying to use an unavoidable decrease in production in these situations as evidence for your hypothesis is intellectually dishonest.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:34 am to RonBurgundy
You're arguing 2 different things:
1) That LeBron makes great players worse. I disagree with this. Bosh was great with LeBron. He didn't put up stats, but he was fantastic for Miami. More ways to measure greatness than counting stats.
2) That Cleveland's offense is poorly designed. I agree with this. Miami Bron, posting up, moving the ball is ideal Bron on a team with stars. Mike Brown era Bron doesnt cut it. It seems like the weight loss was a signal that he wants to be a guard more than a forward
1) That LeBron makes great players worse. I disagree with this. Bosh was great with LeBron. He didn't put up stats, but he was fantastic for Miami. More ways to measure greatness than counting stats.
2) That Cleveland's offense is poorly designed. I agree with this. Miami Bron, posting up, moving the ball is ideal Bron on a team with stars. Mike Brown era Bron doesnt cut it. It seems like the weight loss was a signal that he wants to be a guard more than a forward
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:37 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
Sure when players like Bosh and Love go from the first option to the third, their raw numbers will drop quite a a bit. That would happen anywhere with any team. Trying to use an unavoidable decrease in production in these situations as evidence for your hypothesis is intellectually dishonest.
It's not intellectually dishonest at all. I'm more than aware of touches play a huge factor in production. However, to deny the possibility that LeBron's presence means that Love and Irving aren't reaching their apex as players, like Wade and Bosh before them, is fools gold.
Saying that players get more efficient-as if that is some defining metric in a visual game is absolutely false. Of course their efficiency numbers are through the roof, they'd don't touch the ball nearly as much,so as great as they are, they will make less mistakes with less touches.
Cleveland has adopted the pace and space offense from Miami when it's two younger star players would be better off in a Spursesque offense. Love and Irving need to be touching the ball more for Cleveland to be a winning playoff team.
This isn't LeBron from four years ago, the torch needs to be handed off.
Guys like Duncan,Bird,Magic,Kareem,Dr.J and Russell
knew when it was time to take a back seat as the focal point and start doing little things to make others better. LeBron should be trying to help Irving become best point guard in the world and Love the successor to Dirk as the preeminent shooting 4 scorer. Instead, he's still doing what he did in early Cleveland and his Miami days. He's not the same guy.
This post was edited on 12/27/14 at 11:06 am
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:44 am to lsu480
quote:
Maybe you didn't have him top 5 but EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this board that made a top 10 list had him on it
Not to mention, the Wolves went from a ~.500 team in the West to the worst team in the league
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:44 am to RonBurgundy
quote:
reaching their apex as players
Define apex.
Wade put up great numbers with LeBron. Bosh didn't score as much, but he was a premier defensive big. Quite fair to argue a lesser load on offense allowed him to max out on defense.
I think the "problem" in Cleveland is that Love and Irving aren't nearly as well rounded talents as Bosh and Wade. They are scorers first and second.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:50 am to corndeaux
quote:
They are scorers first and second.
Love certainly is and Irving can certainly fall into that trap. If you're going to trade two #1 picks for a guy, you need him to be maximizing his talents, which in this case is scoring-which requires touches.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:51 am to Ryan3232
Wiggins is looking like he'll be the best player in the League in three years.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 10:55 am to RonBurgundy
I agree. If LeBron is going to dominate the ball, it will be tough sledding for Love and Irving.
The way he's been taking off plays on defense for over a year, I don't think LeBron is willing to play a Bosh role the way he probably should.
IIrving is a great talent, but not sure about his willingness to pass. I saw a tweet about Wall having more double digit assists this season than Irving has since high school.
The way he's been taking off plays on defense for over a year, I don't think LeBron is willing to play a Bosh role the way he probably should.
IIrving is a great talent, but not sure about his willingness to pass. I saw a tweet about Wall having more double digit assists this season than Irving has since high school.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 11:16 am to Professor Parks
quote:
Wiggins is looking like he'll be the best player in the League in three years.
You're right that sub 400 shooting percentage is a great sign he will be the best in 3 years.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 11:21 am to Professor Parks
I didn't realize guys like Westbrook, Durant, Davis, etc. were all retiring so soon.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 11:22 am to corndeaux
quote:
The way he's been taking off plays on defense for over a year, I don't think LeBron is willing to play a Bosh role the way he probably should.
It's too early for him to assume that role. He is still one of, if not the, best players in the world.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 12:21 pm to RonBurgundy
Yet somehow Scottie pippen was able to do it with a more demanding star in Michael.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 12:30 pm to RedRifle
quote:
Yet somehow Scottie pippen was able to do it with a more demanding star in Michael.
First of all, Pippen calling card was defense first, point forward second.
Secondly, You're talking about two very different players.
Next, Triangle offense philosophy is a lot different then what Cleveland is doing
The three point shot wasn't as big part of NBA offenses.
Pippen was an ideal wingman for a lead scoring guard. They complemented each other because they were exactly alike.
Love is a post player who also a great outside shooter. He is a scorer through and through.
To expect him to turn into this defensive stud that he has never been now that he's in Cleveland is idiotic, as if expecting he can drastically change as a player.
LeBron is the all around talent. If other guys can't fill certain roles, as an NBA All-Timer (which he definitely is) it's on him to fill those roles.
If Cleveland wanted a Scottie-then Wiggins would still be in Ohio.
This post was edited on 12/27/14 at 12:30 pm
Posted on 12/27/14 at 12:32 pm to RonBurgundy
I think we all agree on the general philosophy. The problem is that Love is a liability and plays in a system that exposes his defensive flaws. Add the championship or bust expectations and you get benched for the final 12.
Eta: what I like about your post is that you highlight a point most causal fans don't get. You don't just roll out the ball and ask them to "go shoot hoops". There's a lot to having the right personnel pieces, different offensive/defensive sets etc.
Eta: what I like about your post is that you highlight a point most causal fans don't get. You don't just roll out the ball and ask them to "go shoot hoops". There's a lot to having the right personnel pieces, different offensive/defensive sets etc.
This post was edited on 12/27/14 at 12:37 pm
Posted on 12/27/14 at 12:39 pm to RedRifle
quote:
The problem is that Love is a liability and plays in a system that exposes his defensive flaws
well to the OP yes, but as the thread evolved, the narrative lately is that Love is somehow less of a player he was last year-which is false. Playing the PF people expect a certain defensive ability which is fair, but is something that Love is being crucified for because they have no rim protector...and Bron-Bron fanboys/ Ohio natives aren't going to blame him for anything.
If Dallas can win with Dirk at the four, then Cleveland should be able to with Love at the four.
This post was edited on 12/27/14 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 12/27/14 at 12:41 pm to RedRifle
quote:
Eta: what I like about your post is that you highlight a point most causal fans don't get. You don't just roll out the ball and ask them to "go shoot hoops". There's a lot to having the right personnel pieces, different offensive/defensive sets etc.
Posted on 12/27/14 at 1:00 pm to RonBurgundy
I have to say, Ron .. I genuinely enjoy your NBA posts .. They're very good and insightful .. I appreciate your perspective ..
Posted on 12/27/14 at 1:17 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
It's too early for him to assume that role.
First, there's nothing wrong with what Bosh did in Miami. Efficient 18/8 and stellar defense is outstanding. No Bosh buying in with his talents and pace/space doesn't work.
And Ron nailed it
quote:
LeBron is the all around talent. If other guys can't fill certain roles, as an NBA All-Timer (which he definitely is) it's on him to fill those roles.
He picked Irving. He wanted Love. They can score, but have problems elsewhere. LeBron can fill those gaps, but he has to give up the ball some to do so. Like Bosh did. If LeBron puts up 19/9/9 with good defense and Irving/Love explode, how is LeBron less of a player?
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