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re: Who's the best duo of all time? (NBA)
Posted on 6/6/17 at 2:13 pm to David Ricky
Posted on 6/6/17 at 2:13 pm to David Ricky
1993-94, I believe Scottie finished 3rd in the MVP voting as he led the MJ-less Bulls to 55 wins.
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Posted on 6/6/17 at 2:18 pm to ChiSaint
quote:
Except that's not true. Kobe never outscored Jordan in H2H matchups when Jordan was with the Bulls. The only time Kobe scored more than 33 points in a game against Jordan was in 2003 when Jordan was past his prime and on the Wizards.
I looked up 1998, I don't think Kobe ever scored 39 in any game all season, much less 1 half against MJ.
LAL played CHI twice. Once Kobe had 20. In the other game, Kobe had 33, but LAL as a team was barely able to break 39 in each half.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 2:23 pm to shel311
quote:
I looked up 1998, I don't think Kobe ever scored 39 in any game all season, much less 1 half against MJ.
1998 was Kobe's first full year to start and almost averaged 20.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 2:45 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
Seasons Played Together: 10
NBA Titles: 5
Magic and Kareem scored a combined:
9 NBA MVP's
21 NBA All-Star selections
5 NBA finals MVP's
19 NBA All-First teams
5 NBA championships
56,094 career points (4,761 more than Jordan and Pippen)
GOAT!
Posted on 6/6/17 at 2:51 pm to slackster
quote:
Kobe just shot the ball 27 times a game that year on a really bad team. He was great, but MVP worthy is tough that year.
Kobe had a 28.0 PER to Dirk's 28.1 despite a much, much higher usage rate (38.7% to 30.0%). That's not Kobe just jacking up more shots than normal.
Kobe posting 35 PPG with a PER and USG% that high while dragging Lamar Odom + the bad news bears to the playoffs in a loaded Western Conference was more impressive than Dirk's 2006 season imo jmo.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 2:53 pm to Weagle25
Duncan/ Robinson
Posted on 6/6/17 at 3:01 pm to PhiTiger1764
quote:Yeah, but in a thread a while back, we found how poor the All-NBA defensive selections could be, especially before easily accessible data were available and when coaches were voting.
Most 1st team all defense selections of all time
For example, Kobe was first-team defense in 2005-2006. When on the court, he had a defensive rating of 106.8 (0.6 points worse than the league average) with a defensive EFG% 49.0% (exactly league average). More importantly, when he was off the court the Lakers had a defensive rating of 100.4 (6.8 points better) of 46.8% (2.2% better). He also had a defensive box plus minus of -1.5 and 3.7 defensive win shares (0.054 per 48).
Conversely, LeBron didn't make either all-defensive teams in the 2015-2016. When on the court, he has a defensive rating of 103.8 (2.6 points better than league average) with a defensive EFG% of 49.2% (1.0% better than league average). More importantly, when he was off the court, the Cavs had a defensive rating of 106.4 (2.6 points worse) of 50.6% (1.4% worse). He also had a defensive box plus minus of +2.3 and 4 defensive win shares (0.071 per 48).
So by every metric, not only was LeBron a better defensive player in 2015-2016, by far, Kobe was actually a below average defensive player. Yet, Kobe has a 1st team all nba defense for his below average defense.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 3:06 pm to David Ricky
quote:
Kobe posting 35 PPG with a PER and USG% that high while dragging Lamar Odom + the bad news bears to the playoffs in a loaded Western Conference was more impressive than Dirk's 2006 season imo jmo.
It was impressive, no argument there.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 3:07 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Jordan couldn't defend Kobe. Kobe lit him for 39 points in a HALF in 98
It was actually 42 points in the 1st half....but in 2003 when Jordan was 40 years old playing for the Wizards
Posted on 6/6/17 at 3:20 pm to SPEEDY
quote:So Kobe at 24 and MJ at 40.
It was actually 42 points in the 1st half....but in 2003 when Jordan was 40 years old playing for the Wizards
That's like taking LeBron or MJ at 24 and having them go 1 on 1 against Kobe...next year 2018 Kobe.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 3:34 pm to shel311
Yeah, it was an EXTREMELY poor example to use
Posted on 6/6/17 at 3:40 pm to David Ricky
quote:Why is Kobe's similar PER with a significantly higher usage more impressive?
Kobe had a 28.0 PER to Dirk's 28.1 despite a much, much higher usage rate (38.7% to 30.0%). That's not Kobe just jacking up more shots than normal.
Kobe posting 35 PPG with a PER and USG% that high while dragging Lamar Odom + the bad news bears to the playoffs in a loaded Western Conference was more impressive than Dirk's 2006 season imo jmo.
Usage and PER have about a 0.7 correlation so Dirk's PER was about 7.5 points better than expected given his usage while Kobe's was about 1.5 given his usage.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 3:45 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:It's more impressive IMO.
Why is Kobe's similar PER with a significantly higher usage more impressive?
There are only so many possessions in a game. If you're using a higher % of posesssions at a 28 PER, that is more impressive IMO than someone doing it without using as many possessions.
Do you every play daily fantasy sports? It's the same reason if you have, say, a $50k salary cap to work with then a player who costs $10k and is projected to score 40 points is more valuable than a player who costs $5k and is projected to score 20 points.
The difference is a finite # of possessions. Just extrapolate that out with a silly hypothetical for proof. Take Lebron, if he could have a 90% usage rate and maintain all of his efficiency and maintain his PER exactly as is, wouldn't that be better for the team as well as more impressive for LeBron to do so?
This post was edited on 6/6/17 at 3:47 pm
Posted on 6/6/17 at 4:31 pm to slackster
quote:
Kobe is 7th in PER during that stretch, behind Shaq, Duncan, Malone, Webber, Garnett, and McGrady.
These kind of posts reveal a select few people who frequent this board that pretend to know the game w/ a computer at hand, but would get destroyed in a convo at the bar.
Advanced metrics have given nerds who didn't put in work & follow sports their whole life a seat at the table annoying those who do know with their nonsense
Posted on 6/6/17 at 4:39 pm to shel311
quote:But a person who uses more possessions should have a higher PER. I just regressed the current season and the 2005-2006, but for each point increase in usage, PER increases by ~0.619. So Kobe's 7.5 point higher usage should have about a 4.6 higher PER.
There are only so many possessions in a game. If you're using a higher % of posesssions at a 28 PER, that is more impressive IMO than someone doing it without using as many possessions.
For example, LeBron's highest PER was 31.7 and his usage is 33.8. MJ's highest PER was 31.7 and his usage was 34.1. Last season Steph 31.5 PER with a usage of 32.6.
Obviously, there are probably diminishing returns and the regressions towards the mean will make the difference between usage and PER greater at the extemes, but a 28.0 PER on a 37.5 usage is about in line with expectations.
And as a comparison, Kobe used about 34 possessions per game in 05-06, and between his points and assists, he accounted for about 44.9 points per game (1.24 points per possession used). In 2012-2013. When LeBron had a PER of 31.6 on a 30.2 usage, he used about 24 possessions per game, and between points and assists, accounted for 43.2 points per game (1.88 points per possession used).
Despite only a 13% higher PER, his points per possession was 51% higher. Now that's efficiency.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 4:45 pm to AjaxFury
quote:"Lebron routinely sits out vs top West teams"
These kind of posts reveal a select few people who frequent this board that pretend to know the game w/ a computer at hand, but would get destroyed in a convo at the bar.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 4:49 pm to PhiTiger1764
quote:
Don't confirm that. As that's not what I said. I said these are a few of the things I value.
Phil I wouldn't argue with Shel... the guy is irony personified. He has a certain set of stats he values over everything else regardless of context & doesn't think anyone else has a credible opinion if they don't wholly subscribe to his personal set of metrics.
You're not allowed to use what you value in forming your own opinion (which we've all had long b4 PER, VORP & all that crap) w/ the 2 resident idiots here. Don't lower yourself to argue with stupid people they'll drag you down to their level & beat you w/ experience
I say Shaq/Kobe FWIW, I see other reasonable choices here too
This post was edited on 6/6/17 at 4:51 pm
Posted on 6/6/17 at 4:53 pm to AjaxFury
quote:Engineering has given nerds who have never flown an aircraft a seat at the table with their airplane and rocketship designs.
Advanced metrics have given nerds who didn't put in work & follow sports their whole life a seat at the table annoying those who do know with their nonsense
Biology, chemistry and medicine has given nerds who have never had a deadly disease a seat at the table to that a disease.
Physics had given nerds who have never self-exploded a seat at the table for the Manhattan Project.
Coaching has given a nerd like Greg Popovich, who never played beyond his time at the Air Force Academy, a seat at the table in the NBA.
And tigerdroppings has given an apparent non-nerd like ajaxfury a seat at the table to make asinine statements and show is ignorance to a large group of people.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 9:01 pm to AjaxFury
quote:
These kind of posts reveal a select few people who frequent this board that pretend to know the game w/ a computer at hand, but would get destroyed in a convo at the bar.
Advanced metrics have given nerds who didn't put in work & follow sports their whole life a seat at the table annoying those who do know with their nonsense
Nonsense. Kobe wasn't a top 5 player in the NBA during the 3 peat, plain and simple. Garnett, Shaq, and Duncan were way better. McGrady was better, as was Weber.
Kobe was on the cusp, and was top 5 for the next 12 years.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 9:09 pm to Weagle25
Without reading this thread, Robinson and Duncan
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