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re: Where do you rank Ichiro all-time as an all-around player?
Posted on 7/21/16 at 1:43 pm to FutureHendrix
Posted on 7/21/16 at 1:43 pm to FutureHendrix
quote:
he'd have been a better player if he traded some of those hits for more walks.
quote:It's not that tough to understand. If he would have showed more plate discipline and walked more instead of always going for hits, he would be better. That's not saying walks are better than hits or that trading those hits for an equal amount of walks would have made him better. It's saying that changing his approach with an emphasis on getting on base may decrease his # of hits by some, but increase his walks by a much higher proportion.
what?
1
Posted on 7/21/16 at 2:03 pm to FutureHendrix
quote:
If he played his whole career in the states we're talking about one of the 10 best outfielders of all time.
I don't know... OF is so loaded. I mean, off the top of my head, you have Ruth, Ted Williams, Musial, Mays, Rickey, Bonds, Cobb, and Speaker who are all clearly ahead. Those are inner circle Hall of Famers (or would be if Bonds was in). That only leaves two slots left in the top 10 for Mantle, DiMaggio, Yaz, Ramirez, Raines, Winfield, Reggie, Robinson, and of course, Aaron. I think Ichiro would fall outside the top 10, even if we add all his time in Japan.
Carew is the obvious comp. Ichiro has more speed, but less power. Both won an obscene number of batting titles. Tim Raines wasn't quite the batting average guy in comparison, but a better base stealer and a ton more walks.
I love Raines to death, so I'd probably rank Rock ahead of Ichiro, but not if we added in Japan. then we'd probably be looking at Rose's hit record. There would be a real chance the award would be named after him and not Carew, though I think Carew was the better player. But not by leaps and bounds.
I think Ichiro would almost certainly be a top 100 player of all-time if we excluded pitchers.
Posted on 7/21/16 at 2:22 pm to Baloo
quote:
I don't know... OF is so loaded. I mean, off the top of my head, you have Ruth, Ted Williams, Musial, Mays, Rickey, Bonds, Cobb, and Speaker who are all clearly ahead. Those are inner circle Hall of Famers (or would be if Bonds was in). That only leaves two slots left in the top 10 for Mantle, DiMaggio, Yaz, Ramirez, Raines, Winfield, Reggie, Robinson, and of course, Aaron. I think Ichiro would fall outside the top 10, even if we add all his time in Japan.
He's definitely outside the top 10. From your list: Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Rickey, Bonds, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle, DiMaggio, Robinson, Aaron are inarguably ahead of him, IMO. And, I would add Mel Ott to that group.
Posted on 7/21/16 at 2:31 pm to Speedy G
I think the better question is whether he's a top 10 RF (which would still be awesome). Looking at RF:
Babe Ruth
Aaron
Reggie
Clemente
Winfield
Robinson
Kaline
Ott
Gwynn
Dawson
Crawford (not that one, the old one)
Waner
VLAD!
Larry Walker
Sosa
I'd put him right on the cusp. I'd probably put him in the top 10, but I unreasonably love Vlad Guerrero and Larry Walker, probably my two favorite non-Orioles of the past 20 years.
Babe Ruth
Aaron
Reggie
Clemente
Winfield
Robinson
Kaline
Ott
Gwynn
Dawson
Crawford (not that one, the old one)
Waner
VLAD!
Larry Walker
Sosa
I'd put him right on the cusp. I'd probably put him in the top 10, but I unreasonably love Vlad Guerrero and Larry Walker, probably my two favorite non-Orioles of the past 20 years.
Posted on 7/21/16 at 2:34 pm to Speedy G
quote:
Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Rickey, Bonds, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle, DiMaggio, Robinson, Aaron are inarguably ahead of him, IMO. And, I would add Mel Ott to that group.
would anyone take Ichiro over
Vlad Guerrero
Manny Ramirez
Carlos Beltran
Ken Griffey
Larry Walker
i wouldnt
Posted on 7/21/16 at 3:16 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
would anyone take Ichiro over
Vlad Guerrero-No
Manny Ramirez -No (but Ichiro has a better shot at the HOF due to PED)
Carlos Beltran -Yes
Ken Griffey -No
Larry Walker- No
Posted on 7/21/16 at 3:26 pm to Lester Earl
Here are the RF JAWS rankings. Blended average career WAR and peak 7 year WAR. Some of these guys could be listed at other positions.
Babe Ruth - 123.9
Hank Aaron - 101.3
Stan Musial - 96.2
Mel Ott - 80.3
Frank Robinson - 80.0
Roberto Clemente - 74.4
Al Kaline - 70.7
Reggie Jackson - 60.3
Harry Heilmann - 59.6
Larry Walker - 58.6
Paul Waner - 57.5
Sam Crawford - 57.4
Joe Jackson - 57.4
Tony Gwynn - 54.9
Dwight Evans - 52.0
Ichiro - 51.8
Reggie Smith - 51.6
Sammy Sosa - 51.0
Dave Winfield - 50.8
Bobby Abreau - 50.7
Vlad Guerrero - 50.2
Bobby Bonds - 49.4
Gary Sheffield - 49.1
Elmer Flick - 47.2
Enos Slaughter - 45.1
LINK
Ichiro probably moves past Reggie and maybe Kaline and Clemente if you give him some credit for his Japan years.
Clemente isn't an outrageous comp for Ichiro, if you are willing to trade power for speed.
Babe Ruth - 123.9
Hank Aaron - 101.3
Stan Musial - 96.2
Mel Ott - 80.3
Frank Robinson - 80.0
Roberto Clemente - 74.4
Al Kaline - 70.7
Reggie Jackson - 60.3
Harry Heilmann - 59.6
Larry Walker - 58.6
Paul Waner - 57.5
Sam Crawford - 57.4
Joe Jackson - 57.4
Tony Gwynn - 54.9
Dwight Evans - 52.0
Ichiro - 51.8
Reggie Smith - 51.6
Sammy Sosa - 51.0
Dave Winfield - 50.8
Bobby Abreau - 50.7
Vlad Guerrero - 50.2
Bobby Bonds - 49.4
Gary Sheffield - 49.1
Elmer Flick - 47.2
Enos Slaughter - 45.1
LINK
Ichiro probably moves past Reggie and maybe Kaline and Clemente if you give him some credit for his Japan years.
Clemente isn't an outrageous comp for Ichiro, if you are willing to trade power for speed.
Posted on 7/21/16 at 6:14 pm to Speedy G
quote:this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read
he'd have been a better player if he traded some of those hits for more walks.
Posted on 7/21/16 at 7:05 pm to Flair Chops
Obviously, I meant sacrificing a number of hits for a greater number of walks (i.e. "more"), thus increasing his OBP at the expense of his AVG.
Posted on 7/21/16 at 7:11 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
Carlos Beltran -Yes
the only thing Ichiro was better at than Beltran was stealing bases, but you put Beltran's 300SB with his 400+ HR and the fact that he played an above average CF and i think id rather have him
Posted on 7/21/16 at 9:48 pm to Jamohn
Never ever trade a hit for a walk..
This post was edited on 7/21/16 at 9:49 pm
Posted on 7/21/16 at 10:14 pm to El Batnaros
Damn man. Nobody is talking about 1:1 trades. Talking about approach. 
Posted on 7/21/16 at 10:18 pm to El Batnaros
quote:
Never ever trade a hit for a walk..
How about 2 hits for 3 walks? Or even 3 for 4?
For a leadoff hitter, plus plus runner, and prolific base stealer who mostly hits singles anyway?
Posted on 7/21/16 at 11:43 pm to barry
quote:
he didn't play a premium defensive position.
1. wrong Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays say hi.
I down rate him for lack of power, regardless of BP. Cobb had a triple crown right before Ruth blossomed.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 12:18 am to Roaad
quote:
Five-tooler
Almost...
1) Hitting for Power
2) Hitting for Average
3) Fielding Ability
4) Throwing Ability
5) Speed
Posted on 7/22/16 at 1:45 am to CelticDog
quote:
he didn't play a premium defensive position.
1. wrong Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays say hi.
None of those guys played the same position as Ichiro.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 5:40 am to Lester Earl
4 SUPER ELITE tools.
Position players of the last 25 years
Bonds
A-Rod
Pujols
Pudge
Griffey
Manny
F.Thomas
Alomar
are above for sure
which puts Ichiro about equal with guys like Cano, Mcgwire, Miggy, Beltran, Chipper
Position players of the last 25 years
Bonds
A-Rod
Pujols
Pudge
Griffey
Manny
F.Thomas
Alomar
are above for sure
which puts Ichiro about equal with guys like Cano, Mcgwire, Miggy, Beltran, Chipper
Posted on 7/22/16 at 5:45 am to VerlanderBEAST
Is that list of 4 super elite tool players i cluding modern day? Trout has to be in there if so.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 6:02 am to McCaigBro69
quote:No best players of the last 25 years period.
Is that list of 4 super elite tool players i cluding modern day? Trout has to be in there if so.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 6:06 am to Lester Earl
quote:
Vlad Guerrero
And people get on Ichiro for his pitch selection lol.
Ichiro is very good but pretty flawed when you look at him from an all-time standpoint.
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