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re: Myth: It was harder for star NBA players to score in the 80's and 90's than now.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:23 pm to GynoSandberg
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:23 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
Im sure the best players in the world would not have adapted to zone defenses. These guys today are revolutionizing the game, i tell ya!
Just how there's this perception players of today wouldn't have been able to adapt to the more "physical" nature of the game's past?
1
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:38 pm to RTR America
quote:
It is just something that gets thrown out there all the time with no real backing other then anecdotal evidence
You could look at the actual scoring. The League average in the 80s was between 105-110 points per game. The hard fouling defense, orginiated with the Bad Boys, but it was until the 90s that became the league norm. By the end of the 90s the league scoring average fell to 91.6 points a game. That was down 18.5 points per game from 10 years before ('88-'89 season).
Last year the league averaged 101 points, 9 points less than the '89 season and 10 points more than the '98-'99 season.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:39 pm to PrimeTime Money
No.. true cause back you couldn't take four and five steps to the basket
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:44 pm to TigerintheNO
The reason the game had such low scoring in the late 90's was because the game became such a slow-paced one-on-one league.
That was the gripe. Too much iso ball, not much running the floor, and little passing.
That was the whole reason for the rule change. It was to encourage more passing because players weren't going to be able to play iso ball the same way. It was going to encourage a faster-paced, more up and down game with more shooting.
They changed the rules to make the league more exciting, because there was a lot of griping about the state of the NBA in the late 90's.
That was the gripe. Too much iso ball, not much running the floor, and little passing.
That was the whole reason for the rule change. It was to encourage more passing because players weren't going to be able to play iso ball the same way. It was going to encourage a faster-paced, more up and down game with more shooting.
They changed the rules to make the league more exciting, because there was a lot of griping about the state of the NBA in the late 90's.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:46 pm to PurpleDrank18
quote:
Just how there's this perception players of today wouldn't have been able to adapt to the more "physical" nature of the game's past?
Im sure they could. Good players are good players.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:48 pm to PrimeTime Money
Also by the end of the 90s the talent level had taken a step back from the late 80s. Due to the rapid expansion you had nearly 100 extra roster spots for people who wouldn't have been the league a decade earlier.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 2:59 pm to TheSexecutioner
quote:
If he was guarded by 2 guys at all time, he would probably shoot a terrible percentage/not score more than 15 points a game.
Holy shite!
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:13 pm to stout
Prime,
You're spot-on and this is close to inarguable. It's so frustrating that some can't or just refuse to admit blatant truths.
No one is saying the 80s or 90s stars are less talented or skilled. But if you can't acknowledge how much the game has changed then you're just being a stubborn child.
The game has changed so much in this decade it's almost not comparable. I'm not even sure whether I like the change or not, but you can't pretend it hasn't happened.
You're spot-on and this is close to inarguable. It's so frustrating that some can't or just refuse to admit blatant truths.
No one is saying the 80s or 90s stars are less talented or skilled. But if you can't acknowledge how much the game has changed then you're just being a stubborn child.
The game has changed so much in this decade it's almost not comparable. I'm not even sure whether I like the change or not, but you can't pretend it hasn't happened.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:22 pm to stout
quote:
Holy shite!
If MJ were literally guarded by 2 guys the whole time. I'm not talking about an occasional trap. I'm talking about the opposing SG and SF just sticking on him like glue, denying him the ball, trapping when he gets it, etc.
Theres no way he would score over 15 points a game with a decent percentage. He doesn't have magic powers.
Obviously it would never happen because its unrealistic to leave one guy unguarded at all time. I'm illustrating how silly it is to think that good players can automatically adjust to a defensive scheme. Sure he can adjust, but he's still going to be at an INCREDIBLE disadvantage.
Part of the adjustment is realizing you can't do the things against 2 defenders that you can against 1 and so adjusting by, you know, passing more. Gyno implied he would adjust by becoming twice as quick and strong so that his scoring ability won't drop off with 2 defenders. Either that or he made a completely irrelevant comment.
This post was edited on 3/15/15 at 3:27 pm
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:27 pm to FootballNostradamus
quote:
Prime,
You're spot-on and this is close to inarguable. It's so frustrating that some can't or just refuse to admit blatant truths.
No one is saying the 80s or 90s stars are less talented or skilled. But if you can't acknowledge how much the game has changed then you're just being a stubborn child.
The game has changed so much in this decade it's almost not comparable. I'm not even sure whether I like the change or not, but you can't pretend it hasn't happened.
Not sure anyone is arguing that the game has changed. However, there have been, IMO, 2 rules that have changed the game, zone D being allowed again and the hand checking rule.
1 of those rules brought scoring down (the zone hypothetically), and 1 brought scoring up (the hand check hypothetically). To say it was a myth that it was harder to score, and use the Zone as your primary reason for it, while basically ignoring the hand checking rule as a reason that it is easier to score is asinine.
Both rules are in effect in 2015
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:31 pm to PrimeTime Money
I love topics like this where one side is so obviously right that the opposition's argument is akin to covering their eyes and ears. Good job.
Pace can account for much of that:
In '85 the league average pace was 102.1. The Nuggets were the league's fastest paced team at 107.6 possessions per 48 min while the Mavs brought up the rear at 98.8.
By '96 the league average was 91.8, with the league leading Celtics at 96.2 (lower than the lowest a decade previous). The Cavs were at the bottom with 82.3 per 48.
Last season the league average was 93.9. The 76ers led with 99.2 per 48 and Grizzlies were the slowest paced team at 89.9.
All of this to say that points per 100 possessions haven't actually changed much.
'14 - 106.7
'96 - 107.6
'85 - 107.9
Outside of the late 90s/early 00s when the talent pool was notably thin scoring has stayed fairly consistent.
quote:
You could look at the actual scoring. The League average in the 80s was between 105-110 points per game. The hard fouling defense, orginiated with the Bad Boys, but it was until the 90s that became the league norm. By the end of the 90s the league scoring average fell to 91.6 points a game. That was down 18.5 points per game from 10 years before ('88-'89 season). Last year the league averaged 101 points, 9 points less than the '89 season and 10 points more than the '98-'99 season.
Pace can account for much of that:
In '85 the league average pace was 102.1. The Nuggets were the league's fastest paced team at 107.6 possessions per 48 min while the Mavs brought up the rear at 98.8.
By '96 the league average was 91.8, with the league leading Celtics at 96.2 (lower than the lowest a decade previous). The Cavs were at the bottom with 82.3 per 48.
Last season the league average was 93.9. The 76ers led with 99.2 per 48 and Grizzlies were the slowest paced team at 89.9.
All of this to say that points per 100 possessions haven't actually changed much.
'14 - 106.7
'96 - 107.6
'85 - 107.9
Outside of the late 90s/early 00s when the talent pool was notably thin scoring has stayed fairly consistent.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:34 pm to Buckeye06
quote:
Not sure anyone is arguing that the game has changed. However, there have been, IMO, 2 rules that have changed the game, zone D being allowed again and the hand checking rule.
1 of those rules brought scoring down (the zone hypothetically), and 1 brought scoring up (the hand check hypothetically). To say it was a myth that it was harder to score, and use the Zone as your primary reason for it, while basically ignoring the hand checking rule as a reason that it is easier to score is asinine.
Both rules are in effect in 2015
But one has a more concentrated effect on star players. Zone defense makes it harder for a team to score, hand checking makes it easier..... So they are a wash on team scoring. But hand checking doesn't really change the DISTRIBUTION of scoring. It just makes it harder for everybody to score. Playing a zone takes away iso basketball. Iso's are called for the best player. In other words the star. So it is harder for 1 star player to score a high percentage of his teams points nowadays even if offensive efficiencies are just as high.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:35 pm to RonBurgundy
quote:
Kobe Bryant
I'd listen to him before anyone today because he actually played in 3 different decades. He was around then and he's right
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:40 pm to RonBurgundy
quote:cause when you think of the go to guy for rational thinking, Kobe is obviously the guy that comes to mind?
-Kobe Bryant
/thread
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:46 pm to Buckeye06
Hand checking was eliminated originally in '79 and further discouraged in '95. The '01 "rule change" was basically just reiterating that it was a thing.
Players still do it now because they know the refs won't call it every time. Remember Durant's rip through move that they nerfed a couple years back? It wouldn't have been effective if players weren't hand checking him.
Players still do it now because they know the refs won't call it every time. Remember Durant's rip through move that they nerfed a couple years back? It wouldn't have been effective if players weren't hand checking him.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:48 pm to TheSexecutioner
quote:
But one has a more concentrated effect on star players. Zone defense makes it harder for a team to score, hand checking makes it easier..... So they are a wash on team scoring. But hand checking doesn't really change the DISTRIBUTION of scoring. It just makes it harder for everybody to score. Playing a zone takes away iso basketball. Iso's are called for the best player. In other words the star. So it is harder for 1 star player to score a high percentage of his teams points nowadays even if offensive efficiencies are just as high.
So Jordan would have averaged like 30 and 15 assists for his career then?
Ok
Posted on 3/15/15 at 3:57 pm to Buckeye06
quote:
So Jordan would have averaged like 30 and 15 assists for his career then?
Ok
Who said that?
Posted on 3/15/15 at 4:58 pm to imraged
quote:
Hand checking was eliminated originally in '79 and further discouraged in '95. The '01 "rule change" was basically just reiterating that it was a thing.
Finally, someone who remembers the '79 rule. People on here act like hand-checking was banned last week.
Posted on 3/16/15 at 10:11 am to FightinTigersDammit
Yeah but it wasn't really enforced much. The refs cracked down at the start of the '94 season, but they stopped calling it after about a month. That was the extent of the enforcement until it was eliminated completely.
Posted on 3/16/15 at 11:50 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
I hear this a lot... even on this board. It's the idea that the game was more "physical" and hand-checking made it very difficult for star players to score. This is an odd myth. The rules today take the star players out of the game in ways that the old rules didn't. The old rules allowed stars to thrive.
I've been arguing this FOR YEARS as evidence Kobe > Jordan
...and a reason Kobe is the GOAT
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