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Message
Mathematical Comparison of FSU's Season To Bamas
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:11 am
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:11 am
So I am appalled at how inept the committee is at finding a way to compare an undefeated team to a 1 loss team. So I came up with 2 methods that help illustrate it. The first is for the mathematically challenged.
In order to compare "apples to apples", we need to give Florida State a loss since you can't undo Oregon or Bamas loss. An easy way to do that is to put 2 hypothetical games against the 2 teams closest to them on the schedule. Put 1 game as away and 1 as home and give them a win in one and a loss in the other. Since this would be the expected result, it neither improves nor hurts their resume. Now you can compare the resumes. With FSU, the teams to be added would be Oregon and Alabama. But lets even be conservative and say Wisconsin and Oklahoma since some aren't positive FSU is elite. That would be one of the hardest schedules in college football and definitely better than Alabama or Oregon's. Note that they would also still have 2 more wins than all other 1 loss teams.
The second is mathematical and I worked it out. I went through Bama and FSU's schedule and assigned a probability of a generic top 5 team winning each game on their schedule. So for example, 75% chance of beating Clemson at home, 65% chance of beating Arkansas on the road, etc. I then calculated the odds of a team going undefeated with Florida State's schedule and going 1 loss or better with Bamas, both including the championship game.
Chances of going undefeated with Florida State's is 5.25%. Chances of finishing with 1 loss or better with Bama's schedule is 16.27%. Shouldn't this be by far the most important thing? Maybe if the impressiveness of the feat were within a couple of percentage points, you can look at style points, but Jesus Christ....... People really don't understand how massive of a difference there is statistically between going undefeated and having 1 loss.
Another trap people fall into is overvaluing big games and undervaluing the medium opponents. Bamas schedule is better but not as much as you would think. They have 3 jokes of out of conference schedule that total to basically free wins. Between @oklahohoma State(.8), Notre Dame(.8), and Florida(.8), thats the equivalent of playing a team with only a 51.2% chance of winning. So basically playing Bama or Oregon at home. Anybody disregarding FSU's non conference schedule needs to understand that.
If anybody wants to make up their own numbers and run it, I can show you how or send you the spreadsheet to plug them in. The point is its ridiculous to just spout off unsubstantiated nonsense like "FSU would have 4 losses in the SEC West" or "10 other teams would go undefeated with FSU's schedule" when a little bit of math and logic can help put things into perspective.
In order to compare "apples to apples", we need to give Florida State a loss since you can't undo Oregon or Bamas loss. An easy way to do that is to put 2 hypothetical games against the 2 teams closest to them on the schedule. Put 1 game as away and 1 as home and give them a win in one and a loss in the other. Since this would be the expected result, it neither improves nor hurts their resume. Now you can compare the resumes. With FSU, the teams to be added would be Oregon and Alabama. But lets even be conservative and say Wisconsin and Oklahoma since some aren't positive FSU is elite. That would be one of the hardest schedules in college football and definitely better than Alabama or Oregon's. Note that they would also still have 2 more wins than all other 1 loss teams.
The second is mathematical and I worked it out. I went through Bama and FSU's schedule and assigned a probability of a generic top 5 team winning each game on their schedule. So for example, 75% chance of beating Clemson at home, 65% chance of beating Arkansas on the road, etc. I then calculated the odds of a team going undefeated with Florida State's schedule and going 1 loss or better with Bamas, both including the championship game.
Chances of going undefeated with Florida State's is 5.25%. Chances of finishing with 1 loss or better with Bama's schedule is 16.27%. Shouldn't this be by far the most important thing? Maybe if the impressiveness of the feat were within a couple of percentage points, you can look at style points, but Jesus Christ....... People really don't understand how massive of a difference there is statistically between going undefeated and having 1 loss.
Another trap people fall into is overvaluing big games and undervaluing the medium opponents. Bamas schedule is better but not as much as you would think. They have 3 jokes of out of conference schedule that total to basically free wins. Between @oklahohoma State(.8), Notre Dame(.8), and Florida(.8), thats the equivalent of playing a team with only a 51.2% chance of winning. So basically playing Bama or Oregon at home. Anybody disregarding FSU's non conference schedule needs to understand that.
If anybody wants to make up their own numbers and run it, I can show you how or send you the spreadsheet to plug them in. The point is its ridiculous to just spout off unsubstantiated nonsense like "FSU would have 4 losses in the SEC West" or "10 other teams would go undefeated with FSU's schedule" when a little bit of math and logic can help put things into perspective.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:18 am to TheSexecutioner
Words
There are too many of them
There are too many of them
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:23 am to TheSexecutioner
I don't think it's a mystery that Alabama is better than FSU this year.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:25 am to TheSexecutioner
quote:
went through Bama and FSU's schedule and assigned a probability of a generic top 5 team winning each game on their schedule. So for example, 75% chance of beating Clemson at home, 65% chance of beating Arkansas on the road,
How did you come up with these arbitrary values? Clemson is 9-3 and currently ranked. Arkansas is 6-6, was on a massive SEC losing streak when they played that game, and is unranked. You could at least use something like Vegas spreads and see what teams covered if you're just going to make shite up.
Also, show your work with your 5.25% and 16.27%
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:26 am to alabamabuckeye
quote:
I don't think it's a mystery that Alabama is better than FSU this year.
shouldn't really matter, should it? Alabama would still be better if LSU hadn't choked away that game. Should Alabama still be ranked number 1 in that case, even with 2 losses?
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:30 am to The Easter Bunny
quote:
How did you come up with these arbitrary values? Clemson is 9-3 and currently ranked. Arkansas is 6-6, was on a massive SEC losing streak when they played that game, and is unranked. You could at least use something like Vegas spreads and see what teams covered if you're just going to make shite up.
Also, show your work with your 5.25% and 16.27%
I told you I could send you the spreadsheet. I gave a best estimate of what the odds would be. Arkansas is still a tough win despite them being unranked. Plus it was at Arkansas. The fact that LSU was slight underdogs to them tells me that a top 5 team would have a 65% chance or so of beating them on the road. But I don't get your point there....... If you think those should be swapped, that only makes Florida States season more impressive and Bama's less. List your best estimates of the odds of a top 5 team for each of those games and I'll run it through.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:32 am to TheSexecutioner
quote:This is why this line of thinking is scary, really scary. Hell, we might as well not even play a damn season if it is about "who we think is better"
shouldn't really matter, should it? Alabama would still be better if LSU hadn't choked away that game. Should Alabama still be ranked number 1 in that case, even with 2 losses?
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:33 am to TheSexecutioner
I'm sure FSU would have crushed LSU @ baton rouge that night too right?
November the 8th FSU beat Virginia (4-6) at home by 14 and had 3 turnovers.
FYI: You hide behind math but you don't actually use any
What's the win probability of FSU vs. Virginia as opposed to Bama vs. Florida (in conference home game)
November the 8th FSU beat Virginia (4-6) at home by 14 and had 3 turnovers.
FYI: You hide behind math but you don't actually use any
What's the win probability of FSU vs. Virginia as opposed to Bama vs. Florida (in conference home game)
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:33 am to TheSexecutioner
A generic top 5 team is impossible to imagine. So many variables.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:34 am to JB Bama
quote:
I'm sure FSU would have crushed LSU @ baton rouge that night too right?
No I gave them a .55 chance of winning in Baton Rouge. Bama was 6 point favorites, so a good bit higher than that. I'll show the numbers. And the Florida game isn't a great example to call me out on because they both play Florida at home, so that will offset.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:39 am to TheSexecutioner
Ok State vs. WVU - Bama
Citadel vs. FAU - Push
Clemson vs. So. Miss - FSU
NC State vs. Florida - Bama
Ole Miss vs. Wake Forest - Bama
Syracuse vs. Arkansas - Bama
TAMU vs Notre Dame - Push
Louisville vs. Tenn - FSU
Virginia vs. LSU - Bama
Miami vs. Miss St - Bama
BC vs. West Carolina - FSU
Florida vs. Auburn - Bama
Ga Tech. vs. Mizzou - Push
Bama clearly by far has a harder schedule it's not even remotely close. I compared games chronologically it's even worse if I compare them as like opponents.
FSU's toughest opponent is Ga Tech, Bama's is Ole Miss. 2nd toughest is Clemson vs. Miss St, Louisiville vs. Mizzou. FSU wouldn't have one tougher opponent of the first 6 matchups.
Citadel vs. FAU - Push
Clemson vs. So. Miss - FSU
NC State vs. Florida - Bama
Ole Miss vs. Wake Forest - Bama
Syracuse vs. Arkansas - Bama
TAMU vs Notre Dame - Push
Louisville vs. Tenn - FSU
Virginia vs. LSU - Bama
Miami vs. Miss St - Bama
BC vs. West Carolina - FSU
Florida vs. Auburn - Bama
Ga Tech. vs. Mizzou - Push
Bama clearly by far has a harder schedule it's not even remotely close. I compared games chronologically it's even worse if I compare them as like opponents.
FSU's toughest opponent is Ga Tech, Bama's is Ole Miss. 2nd toughest is Clemson vs. Miss St, Louisiville vs. Mizzou. FSU wouldn't have one tougher opponent of the first 6 matchups.
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 8:41 am
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:39 am to TheSexecutioner
@OKSt -.8
Citadel - 1.00
Clemson- .75
@NCST-.8
Wake-.98
@Syr - .85
Notre Dame - .8
@ Louisville -.6
Virginia - .9
@Miami - .65
Boston College - .9
Florida - .8
GT(neutral) - .65
West Virginia - .8
Florida Atlantic - 1.00
Southern Miss - .98
Florida - .8
@Ole Miss -.55
@Arkansas - .65
TAM - .8
@LSU - .55
Miss St - .7
West Car - .99
Auburn - .7
Mizzou(Neutral) -.8
Citadel - 1.00
Clemson- .75
@NCST-.8
Wake-.98
@Syr - .85
Notre Dame - .8
@ Louisville -.6
Virginia - .9
@Miami - .65
Boston College - .9
Florida - .8
GT(neutral) - .65
West Virginia - .8
Florida Atlantic - 1.00
Southern Miss - .98
Florida - .8
@Ole Miss -.55
@Arkansas - .65
TAM - .8
@LSU - .55
Miss St - .7
West Car - .99
Auburn - .7
Mizzou(Neutral) -.8
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:40 am to JB Bama
quote:
Bama clearly by far has a harder schedule it's not even remotely close.
But they don't have the same record. Finishing undefeated with Florida States schedule is harder than finishing with 1 loss with Bamas. By a lot.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:41 am to TheSexecutioner
No it isn't.
You are comparing winning at LSU which was Bama's what 5th hardest matchup to FSU beating Boston College.
Vegas already said FSU would be about a 2 point favorite over Arkansas so the only number I was able to pull is that a 2 point favorite wins 53.5% of the time.
Remember Arkansas is most likely Alabama's 7th most difficult game of the season. So it stands to reason FSU AT BEST would be a coinflip favorite vs. the top 6 opponents Alabama played (they wouldn't have been favorites in every game).
The chances of them going through Alabama's schedule roughly with 1 loss are under 2% chance they'd have to win 6 straight coinflips basically.
You are comparing winning at LSU which was Bama's what 5th hardest matchup to FSU beating Boston College.
Vegas already said FSU would be about a 2 point favorite over Arkansas so the only number I was able to pull is that a 2 point favorite wins 53.5% of the time.
Remember Arkansas is most likely Alabama's 7th most difficult game of the season. So it stands to reason FSU AT BEST would be a coinflip favorite vs. the top 6 opponents Alabama played (they wouldn't have been favorites in every game).
The chances of them going through Alabama's schedule roughly with 1 loss are under 2% chance they'd have to win 6 straight coinflips basically.
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 8:48 am
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:42 am to JB Bama
quote:
No it isn't.
You are comparing winning at LSU which was Bama's what 5th hardest matchup to FSU beating Boston College.
No, I'm not. I'm not sure why you think I'm comparing that.
And lol at @LSU being Bama's 5th hardest matchup. I'd love to hear the 4 tougher ones than that. Home game against Florida? :rotflmao:
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 8:45 am
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:48 am to TheSexecutioner
1. @ Ole Miss
2. vs. miss St.
3. Mizzou
4. Auburn
5 LSU
I'ts not even debatable unless it's lower. Get a clue.
2. vs. miss St.
3. Mizzou
4. Auburn
5 LSU
I'ts not even debatable unless it's lower. Get a clue.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:50 am to TheSexecutioner
I like this OP. I understand the point. But what is missing is that Florida State's talent isn't what has kept them undefeated. It's their luck. If two people flip a coin, and one of them wins. I don't give actual credit to the person who wins the coin toss. He's just luckier.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 8:51 am to JB Bama
Oh Ok, neutral site against Mizzou where Alabama is favored by 14.5 is a tougher game than in Death Valley where Bama was favored by 6. Gotcha. Don't know why I even considered debating that.
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