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re: Why are umpires allowed to have their "own" strike zones?
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:06 am to KG6
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:06 am to KG6
quote:
How can you expect a person to correctly call an imaginary box floating in 3 dimensional space while paying attention to a ball moving 90 mph??? They "have their own strike zone" due to the way they personally see the pitches
I only clipped some of the post, but this is the answer. Ever see the Naked Gun where Frank takes the place of the ump and the first pitch comes in? Obviously umps are trained and experienced, but they're human.
Naked Gun - call at 1:25
There are pitches with nasty drops that I think are actually high across the plate, but drop right into the catcher's unmoved glove in the middle of the zone. Strike!
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 11:11 am
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Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:08 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Why?
Because you clearly didnt play baseball past the age of 10. Maybe.
quote:
Please cite where I said this. Thank you.
You said you wouldnt lose sleep or protest. I interpreted this as you dont care much about the topic.
quote:
K.
...relevant to my point above.
quote:
I can quote the rule book if you'd like. Not sure how doing so would be off base.
I know the rules, sport. I know the unwritten rules too. You are taking the rule book as an absolute, with no account for human umpires who will have totally different perceptions behind the plate. It is no different than refs calling fouls in basketball. It's subjective.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:11 am to paper tiger
quote:
How do you prevent it? They should be graded by their umpire association and instructed to use the real strike zone if an inordinate amount of their calls fall outside the zone. If they continue to purposefully call strikes outside the zone, get better umps.
That may reduce it but it won't prevent it. Humans are always going to see the zone the way they see it. And there will always be differences between umpires. Plus if you start firing umps because they miss some calls, pretty soon you're not going to have any umps.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:14 am to paper tiger
Actually, umpires are allowed to have their own eyes and their own minds.
At the edges of the plate, the difference between balls and strikes comes down to millimeters, with the ball moving 90 miles per hour, trailing in or out and up or down. Also the strike zone adjusts based upon the height of the batter, and is as deep as home plate, meaning that it involves three dimensional space. It ain't a two dimensional rectangle added to a TV screen shot.
What the OP is actually hot about is strike three, out three against Florida State. Watch the replay. That ball was cutting in toward the plate. From the TV angle you can't tell if it cut to the back portion of the plate. From the TV angle you can't accurately call balls and strikes on the outside of the plate. What you can see is that it was very close, close enough to defend the plate.
At the edges of the plate, the difference between balls and strikes comes down to millimeters, with the ball moving 90 miles per hour, trailing in or out and up or down. Also the strike zone adjusts based upon the height of the batter, and is as deep as home plate, meaning that it involves three dimensional space. It ain't a two dimensional rectangle added to a TV screen shot.
What the OP is actually hot about is strike three, out three against Florida State. Watch the replay. That ball was cutting in toward the plate. From the TV angle you can't tell if it cut to the back portion of the plate. From the TV angle you can't accurately call balls and strikes on the outside of the plate. What you can see is that it was very close, close enough to defend the plate.
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 11:16 am
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:17 am to Paddyshack
quote:
Because you clearly didnt play baseball past the age of 10. Maybe.
Oh, OK. I'm sorry for having an opinion then.
You're clearly much more of an expert. You know nothing about my background, but you're going to rely on some imaginary appeal to authority that you believe that you have. Good luck with that. quote:
You said you wouldnt lose sleep or protest. I interpreted this as you dont care much about the topic.
I'd be careful with your aggressive assumptions. This is the second time already. And yet you're continuing to claim some sort of expertise. Again, good luck with that.
quote:
I know the rules, sport. I know the unwritten rules too. You are taking the rule book as an absolute, with no account for human umpires who will have totally different perceptions behind the plate. It is no different than refs calling fouls in basketball. It's subjective.
I've already provided a substantive response to this assertion in this thread. I guess I'm going to be forced to believe that you're either unwilling or unable to comprehend that response.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:18 am to MountainTiger
quote:
That may reduce it but it won't prevent it. Humans are always going to see the zone the way they see it. And there will always be differences between umpires. Plus if you start firing umps because they miss some calls, pretty soon you're not going to have any umps.
I just must not communicate well. I do not want to fire umps for missing a few calls. There will always be difference in the way people see things of course, and I like the human element of the game.
I am not talking about umpires that "miss" a few calls, I am talking about umpires who have a known reputation for expanding the zone and giving outside strikes, knowing the ball is off the plate but nevertheless rewarding pitchers for hitting their spots.
Some announcers seem to be okay with it as long as its called both ways. Some think its part of the game and I get that.
I think the batter who correctly doesn't chase a ball out of the strike zone should be rewarded, not the pitcher who throws a pitch the ump knows is outside.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:18 am to paper tiger
A strike is perception Of the umpire. Other facts play in.
Cold, hot, long game, batter delaying (stepping in and out of box may aggravate umpire) this seemed to happen last night. Before that pitch the batter stepped out of the box twice. Ump immediately told batter to get back into box and lets go. Then called a possible ball a strike. Although a few pitches earlier he called borderline strikes balls. So it's all good
Here the ump seemed pissed that one:
Batter was delaying stepping in and out of box and playing games with the pitcher.
Batter clearly had no intention to swing and was playing games to draw a walk.
Cold, hot, long game, batter delaying (stepping in and out of box may aggravate umpire) this seemed to happen last night. Before that pitch the batter stepped out of the box twice. Ump immediately told batter to get back into box and lets go. Then called a possible ball a strike. Although a few pitches earlier he called borderline strikes balls. So it's all good
Here the ump seemed pissed that one:
Batter was delaying stepping in and out of box and playing games with the pitcher.
Batter clearly had no intention to swing and was playing games to draw a walk.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:19 am to Mo Jeaux
I'll interpret your continued whining in this thread to mean you don't care about the topic.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:22 am to paper tiger
quote:
Umps that create their own zones need doing other jobs
You need posting no more things.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:27 am to DBU
quote:
I'll interpret your continued whining in this thread to mean you don't care about the topic.
Thats an "aggressive assumption"
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:27 am to paper tiger
quote:
I just must not communicate well. I do not want to fire umps for missing a few calls. There will always be difference in the way people see things of course, and I like the human element of the game.
You said that if they can't get it right then get better umps. I don't know how you do that without firing the ones you've got. But good luck replacing them if they know they can get fired for mis-calling balls and strikes. And if you bring in new umps, will they really be better without the experience that the old umpires had?
quote:
I am not talking about umpires that "miss" a few calls, I am talking about umpires who have a known reputation for expanding the zone and giving outside strikes, knowing the ball is off the plate but nevertheless rewarding pitchers for hitting their spots.
But that's every single umpire in the game.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:33 am to Zanzibaw
It is kind of hard to have a civil discussion on here with snark being the rant norm. Some of it is clever and I like, a lot of it rude which I guess a lot of people on here like. I am used to it.
For those who are interested in the topic and disagree with the premise I have two questions.
Do you think some umpires intentionally, consistently and knowingly expand the strike zone to reward off the plate pitches?
If you do, do you consider that part of the game or do you think the umpire association should counsel them and then remove them from behind the plate if they continue to use their version of the zone?
The original post is not about umps that miss a call now and then, its about umps who have a known reputation for a strike zone outside of the rules.
For those who are interested in the topic and disagree with the premise I have two questions.
Do you think some umpires intentionally, consistently and knowingly expand the strike zone to reward off the plate pitches?
If you do, do you consider that part of the game or do you think the umpire association should counsel them and then remove them from behind the plate if they continue to use their version of the zone?
The original post is not about umps that miss a call now and then, its about umps who have a known reputation for a strike zone outside of the rules.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:33 am to Paddyshack
quote:
Thats an "aggressive assumption"
Jesus. You both seem to amuse yourselves easily. Quite frankly, if the quality of your posts in this thread are any indication, I'm hardly surprised.
Astound us some more with your infinite baseball knowledge, Paddy. Maybe there's a gripping tale of an umpiring feat that you accomplished during a travel ball game in South Louisiana. You can quickly follow that up with some insightful quip about an experience on your high school team.
We're all on the edge of our seats, I'm sure.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:37 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Jesus. You both seem to amuse yourselves easily. Quite frankly, if the quality of your posts in this thread are any indication, I'm hardly surprised.
Astound us some more with your infinite baseball knowledge, Paddy. Maybe there's a gripping tale of an umpiring feat that you accomplished during a travel ball game in South Louisiana. You can quickly follow that up with some insightful quip about an experience on your high school team.
We're all on the edge of our seats, I'm sure.
Do you feel better now that you got that out of your system?
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:41 am to Paddyshack
quote:
Do you feel better now that you got that out of your system?
Yes. No hard feelings.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:44 am to paper tiger
quote:
Do you think some umpires intentionally, consistently and knowingly expand the strike zone to reward off the plate pitches?
Personally, I don't think umps do this for the most part. Some, maybe. Most, no.
It is literally a question of perception. Ump A sees the strike zone totally different than Ump B. They have both called 1000s of pitches, and over time they subconsciously establish what they deem to be strikes and balls as they see it. And like i said, it also depends on how it is presented to the ump by the pitcher and catcher. Catcher setup, framing, trajectory and movement/break of the pitch, etc all play into presentation for the umpire.
The goal is to present it to the ump as a strike, even if it is not.
ETA: To your second point, if umps do it intentionally and/or inconsistently to an extent that it affects the game in a completely negative way, then yes, they should be called on it and reeled in.
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 11:48 am
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:51 am to Paddyshack
quote:
Personally, I don't think umps do this for the most part. Some, maybe. Most, no. It is literally a question of perception. Ump A sees the strike zone totally different than Ump B. They have both called 1000s of pitches, and over time they subconsciously establish what they deem to be strikes and balls as they see it. And like i said, it also depends on how it is presented to the ump by the pitcher and catcher. Catcher setup, framing, trajectory and movement/break of the pitch, etc all play into presentation for the umpire. The goal is to present it to the ump as a strike, even if it is not.
Okay, I agree most umps do not do this and said so in the original post.
But have you not watched games where the ump consistently calls pitches two inches off the plate strikes where everyone watching can tell its not a strike? And then the announcer says something like this umpire is known for his generous zone?
So even though umps see things differently, that's different from umps who philosophically award outside strikes, right?
Do you think it okay for an ump to knowingly call pitches off the plate strikes because they were good location pitches? Have you not seen some umpires who do this a lot? Just curious.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 12:02 pm to paper tiger
quote:
And then the announcer says something like this umpire is known for his generous zone?
Like batters, some umpires have better eyes than others. By generous zone, he could be saying that this umpire perceives a ball 1-2 inches off the plate as painting the black, wheres another ump will see it as being outside.
quote:
So even though umps see things differently, that's different from umps who philosophically award outside strikes, right?
Yes, its different. But most umps who will award an outside strike if the pitcher hits his spot. It is impossible to know if they are awarding a good pitch or if that is how they perceive it. Again, presentation by the catcher/pitcher is key. Game situation (inning, outs, count, score, etc) will also affect an umps strike zone.
The absolute worst thing you can is show up an umpire though. Then you are totally at the mercy of whatever zone they want. Not saying I agree, but thats just another example of how subjective it can be.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 12:26 pm to Paddyshack
quote:
It is impossible to know if they are awarding a good pitch or if that is how they perceive it. Again, presentation by the catcher/pitcher is key
Another example of this is when the catcher is set up outside and the pitch is missed to the inside (or vice versa.) It's often called a ball since the pitcher missed his target by a foot and a half, even if the ball catches part of the plate.
Pitchers who consistently hit their target gets the benefit more times than not on borderline pitches. Not so much when they are all over the place.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 12:27 pm to paper tiger
The strike zone is what the home plate umpire says it is to a large degree. All the players want is for it to be the same for both teams.
A lot of times, the longer the game goes, the wider the zone becomes.
A lot of times, the longer the game goes, the wider the zone becomes.
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