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re: Recruiting Class Myth
Posted on 9/7/16 at 8:18 am to JawjaTigah
Posted on 9/7/16 at 8:18 am to JawjaTigah
The key to recruiting is properly evaluating talent.
LSU does a far better than average job in this, based on the large amount of players that make it to the NFL. On the flip side, the NFL is full of 3 star and below players. The best coaches are the ones that can see those guys that are going to be the late bloomers. Our fans don't seem to understand this and go crazy when we get a commitment from a 3 star and miss on someone higher rank, that we really didn't seem to recruit very hard.
This was the downfall of Mack Brown. He just offered all the 4 and 5 stars in TX and had shut down recruiting before the season had started. He ended up with a roster full of players for TX who had already maxed out physically. A few years ago they had no players drafted when their signing classed 3, 4 and 5 years before were all top 5.
LSU does a far better than average job in this, based on the large amount of players that make it to the NFL. On the flip side, the NFL is full of 3 star and below players. The best coaches are the ones that can see those guys that are going to be the late bloomers. Our fans don't seem to understand this and go crazy when we get a commitment from a 3 star and miss on someone higher rank, that we really didn't seem to recruit very hard.
This was the downfall of Mack Brown. He just offered all the 4 and 5 stars in TX and had shut down recruiting before the season had started. He ended up with a roster full of players for TX who had already maxed out physically. A few years ago they had no players drafted when their signing classed 3, 4 and 5 years before were all top 5.
0
Posted on 9/7/16 at 8:21 am to Mulerider
quote:Yes, with the possible modifier that the talent needn't necessarily be all 4-5 stars to be overwhelming.
Great philosophy, adjustments and overwhelming talent gives you Alabama football.
In his years with us, Nick Saban showed us that LSU can achieve at that very high level. In his years with us, Les Miles showed us the results of overwhelming talent, minus consistent good philosophy.
Do the younger people here know or remember that winning games is not always like getting a root canal; winning games can be a lot of fun?
Posted on 9/7/16 at 8:25 am to JawjaTigah
quote:Have you stopped to think that maybe the talent on the field has made up and overcome the coaching ability. We have won many games on talent alone, despite the offense.
Where has that gotten us?
Posted on 9/7/16 at 8:28 am to JawjaTigah
The top recruiting teams the last 4 classes have been:
1 Alabama (avg: 1)
2 Ohio State (avg: 4)
3 LSU (avg: 4.25)
4 Florida State (avg: 5)
^ one of these is not like the others on the field
1 Alabama (avg: 1)
2 Ohio State (avg: 4)
3 LSU (avg: 4.25)
4 Florida State (avg: 5)
^ one of these is not like the others on the field
This post was edited on 9/7/16 at 8:52 am
Posted on 9/7/16 at 8:29 am to LSU40
quote:Sorry, but you lose the "reads with comprehension" trophy. You couldn't be further the point I am making. Great recruiting classes are fine. 4&5 star recruits are gold. But wasting them on weak coaching, bad philosophy (scheme), poor utilization of their talent once on the team is not a good thing. Never. So by implication, keeping a coach in place because he is a great recruiter is not a reason to keep a coach in place if afterwards he doesn't maximize their potential as members of the team.
I think what he was saying is one of the reasons not to fire Miles last year was the great recruiting class we had lined up and the want not to mess it up.
Posted on 9/7/16 at 8:42 am to mmcgrath
quote:And it usually means that level of recruiting is not sustainable. No coach can sustain consistent top-5's without the production on the field.
You are also not maximizing your recruiting classes if you pair 4 and 5 star receivers with a QB who can't throw accurately. That also minimizes the value of your blue chip running backs and o-line.
Sounds while you might have a 3rd ranked class, you really have to rank it around 10-15 because you are neutralizing some of your value.
Credit Les (and an excellent recruiting staff, past and present) for improving recruiting as production / key wins dropped off. However, if there's a lag it's about to get ugly assuming the press of now, end of last year, and that catches up with us.
And agreed with many here: the recruiting of OL and DL suffered for quite a while. It's improved, but it seems not enough to make up for some deficiencies on the staff.
Posted on 9/7/16 at 8:55 am to JawjaTigah
quote:After wiping your chin, you really need to check W/L of Saban's seasons at LSU.
In his years with us, Nick Saban showed us that LSU can achieve at that very high level.
quote:Actually, since LSU donned facemasks, Miles has the season with largest avg MOV.
Do the younger people here know or remember that winning games is not always like getting a root canal; winning games can be a lot of fun?
The elders on here remember many more painful wins and losses than the few in last 10yrs or so.
I gotta agree with most of the replies here about recruiting being propped by skill positions.
Bama, tOSU and some others are more talented across all positions, 2 deep.
Posted on 9/7/16 at 9:01 am to Mayhawman
quote:Look Mayhawman, before you go shooting your mouth off, let's think about the thing behind the thing. I'm not talking about consistent 10 win seasons; I'm referring to the kind of stress on excellence, execution, performance, fundamentals, intensity, etc. that Saban instilled in the team. Yes, high moment was 2003, no doubt. But overall, LSU was an intimidating team under Nick Saban, win or lose. It wasn't just the talent that made LSU intimidating - it was coaching philosophy. You don't think so, then your memory chip is faulty. Under Les Miles, LSU started off that way and mostly kept its edge until 1/9/12 when we got fully and irrevocably exposed because CLM got his coaching arse handed to him by Nick and his intimidating Tide.
After wiping your chin, you really need to check W/L of Saban's seasons at LSU.
Oh, and in case you're wondering, I know CLM produced plenty of 10+ win seasons. But the quality of those wins was not always high; there are many, many references by others who also watch the Tigers that quite of few of those wins over the Miles years have been like what I called root canals. Not fun.
This post was edited on 9/7/16 at 9:03 am
Posted on 9/7/16 at 9:07 am to JawjaTigah
Recruiting is half the battle, coaching is the other.
Excellent recruiting + below average coaching = average results
and thats where we are at
Excellent recruiting + excellent coaching = excellent results
see Bama, OSU, FSU
Excellent recruiting + below average coaching = average results
and thats where we are at
Excellent recruiting + excellent coaching = excellent results
see Bama, OSU, FSU
Posted on 9/7/16 at 9:13 am to HollierThanThou
quote:
Recruiting is half the battle, coaching is the other.
Excellent recruiting + below average coaching = average results
and thats where we are at
Excellent recruiting + excellent coaching = excellent results
see Bama, OSU, FSU
You said it way better than I did. Thanks!Posted on 9/7/16 at 9:33 am to JawjaTigah
quote:What's so intimidating about 3, 4, and 5 loss teams? That's what's left when you remove the one exceptional season (against easier competition).
It wasn't just the talent that made LSU intimidating - it was coaching philosophy. You don't think so, then your memory chip is faulty.
I'm not really taking up for Miles, just rebuking your rewrite of history.
quote:And there it is.
Under Les Miles, LSU started off that way and mostly kept its edge until 1/9/12 when we got fully and irrevocably exposed because CLM got his coaching arse handed to him by Nick and his intimidating Tide.
Has nothing to do with Saban while at LSU.
Posted on 9/7/16 at 9:59 am to Mayhawman
quote:Intimidating because they were aggressive, in your face, they executed - a style of play that's long gone at LSU now and has been noticeably since that fateful 1/9 debacle - last Saturday being the latest manifestation.
What's so intimidating about 3, 4, and 5 loss teams? That's what's left when you remove the one exceptional season (against easier competition).
I'm not really taking up for Miles, just rebuking your rewrite of history.
quote:Not a rewrite of history, an analysis of LSU football. So your "winning" point is a fail.
CLM got his coaching arse handed to him by Nick and his intimidating Tide.
And there it is.
Has nothing to do with Saban while at LSU.
It is a fail because you fail to recognize that Nice Saban has instilled all that same aggression, execution, stress of excellence, winning attitude, intimidation into his Tide over the years of his tenure there. He was in process of doing that very thing at LSU before he jumped ship for the Dolphins. No, they didn't have 10 win seasons yet. But there was a real sense of LSU being a force in the football world, where LSU had previously and for decades, been a joke. Anybody whose LSU fan pedigree goes back to the Dietzel and Mac days, and the mostly rough years that followed, with eyes to see the Tigers play under Saban know this to be true.
LSU played far differently as a team, player by player, than they had before Saban came. And after he left, that culture remained for a while, and yes, CLM did benefit from it. But as CLM's coaching footprint became more and more the norm at LSU, you began seeing that culture of excellence fade, fade, fade. And you start seeing bad time management, botched substitutions, stupid penalties, poor execution not being the exception anymore, moody team play (coming out flat), few to no adjustments, etc. become the norm.
My unanswerable question is this: Les Miles aside, had Nick Saban not chosen to leave LSU when he did, if he had stayed, could he have made LSU into the victory machine he has made at Alabama? You don't have to agree, but I personally think that he was on his way to building LSU into something a lot like that.
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