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re: For the old-timers...when did Cholly Mac first get on the hot seat?
Posted on 1/29/13 at 6:57 pm to danfraz
Posted on 1/29/13 at 6:57 pm to danfraz
quote:
The day after he replaced Dietzel
Actually, this is true. Mac did have some big wins, like Arkansas in the Cotton Bowl, but that Ole Miss loss in '69 was big, that was his best team. After 1970, his inability to beat Bama, became more & more of an issue...
1
Posted on 1/29/13 at 7:04 pm to dukke v
quote:
heat from AD....
Actually, it had little to do with the AD. It was moreso the LSU BOS, which was constantly meddling. Carl Maddox reached mandatory retirement age and was out as AD. Maddox supported Mac. The BOS brought Dietzel in to can Mac. No long thereafter, he would meet the same fate as the BOS would fire him at a meeting in Alexandria and later hire Brodhead as AD.
Posted on 1/29/13 at 7:17 pm to DaSaltyTiger
Mac was in the mold of all successful coaches at that time, hayes, bo, bear, jordan, stallings, majors, vaught...with the one exception that he only threw to run. we lost archie (and maybe eli) because of that philosophy. for all those who only want to compare mac and miles....different time, different game. les is not even close to the hot seat.
Posted on 1/29/13 at 7:18 pm to Nuts4LSU
First, kudos to the "old-timers" (of which I consider myself). So many well-written posts. Big thanks to:
I-59 Tiger
plawmac
Beltway Bengal
Montana Tiger
dimet
LCTiger69
Nuts4LSU
I was aware of most of the thoughts concerning Cholly Mac except for the inner-dynamics of his coaching staff. Didn't know about that.
Few other things of that era:
- The definition of "success" was different then. Then, success was largely beating our rivals (mostly Ole Miss & Tulane) and going to a bowl. Championships were sort of an afterthought.
- Prior to integration and the demise of Tulane, LSU had no recruiting advantage compared to other SEC schools and the nation. Beginning in the early 70's (?), schools were limited to how many players that could sign. That tended to distribute talent more evenly (Bama could no longer sign the best/better of 40-50 players each year; disclaimer -> I have never really checked to see how many players Bama was signing back then). My point is Mac had no geo-recruiting advantage as today.
The parallels between Mac ('69-'73) and Les today are interesting.
- We didn't lose to bad teams; we didn't get blown out.
- Mac had his debacle with the Veer ('74); Les with Malleveto ('08).
- When Mike Miley (who autographed my baseball glove) left early < '74, we were left in a QB bog for the next 3 seasons (Billy Broussard/Carl Trimble in '74, Pat Lyons and Bobby Moreau in '75 and first part of '76, Ensminger (TrFr) begain starting in the latter part of '76).
What remains to be seen is if Les will succumb to Bama as did Mac in the 70's. If so, I would be in favor of replacing Les because I think we can do better. Stovall was a stop-gap after Bo Rein's untimely death. But Arnsparger was on the right track and in hindsight, I don't think it's unfounded to attribute some of the success in '87 & '88 to the momentum he left behind. Archer obviously was a dud.
I disagree slightly with this. I think it was a factor. Mac had recovered a little form the Miley-Veer debacle, but we were still losing to Bama every year. We had lost 8 straight seasons ('71-'78) before Mac's fate as HC was sealed.
I-59 Tiger
plawmac
Beltway Bengal
Montana Tiger
dimet
LCTiger69
Nuts4LSU
I was aware of most of the thoughts concerning Cholly Mac except for the inner-dynamics of his coaching staff. Didn't know about that.
Few other things of that era:
- The definition of "success" was different then. Then, success was largely beating our rivals (mostly Ole Miss & Tulane) and going to a bowl. Championships were sort of an afterthought.
- Prior to integration and the demise of Tulane, LSU had no recruiting advantage compared to other SEC schools and the nation. Beginning in the early 70's (?), schools were limited to how many players that could sign. That tended to distribute talent more evenly (Bama could no longer sign the best/better of 40-50 players each year; disclaimer -> I have never really checked to see how many players Bama was signing back then). My point is Mac had no geo-recruiting advantage as today.
The parallels between Mac ('69-'73) and Les today are interesting.
- We didn't lose to bad teams; we didn't get blown out.
- Mac had his debacle with the Veer ('74); Les with Malleveto ('08).
- When Mike Miley (who autographed my baseball glove) left early < '74, we were left in a QB bog for the next 3 seasons (Billy Broussard/Carl Trimble in '74, Pat Lyons and Bobby Moreau in '75 and first part of '76, Ensminger (TrFr) begain starting in the latter part of '76).
What remains to be seen is if Les will succumb to Bama as did Mac in the 70's. If so, I would be in favor of replacing Les because I think we can do better. Stovall was a stop-gap after Bo Rein's untimely death. But Arnsparger was on the right track and in hindsight, I don't think it's unfounded to attribute some of the success in '87 & '88 to the momentum he left behind. Archer obviously was a dud.
quote:
One thing is for sure. Not beating Alabama had little or nothing to do with it.
I disagree slightly with this. I think it was a factor. Mac had recovered a little form the Miley-Veer debacle, but we were still losing to Bama every year. We had lost 8 straight seasons ('71-'78) before Mac's fate as HC was sealed.
Posted on 1/29/13 at 7:26 pm to AlwysATgr
quote:
What remains to be seen is if Les will succumb to Bama as did Mac in the 70's.
The 1st thing I will say here is that. BEAR>>>>>>>>>.MAC. And Saban >>>>>>>>>>>>Miles.
quote:
If so, I would be in favor of replacing Les because I think we can do better
With WHO?????????????
Posted on 1/29/13 at 7:37 pm to dukke v
quote:
BEAR>>>>>>>>>.MAC. And Saban >>>>>>>>>>>>Miles.
Mac's record vs Bryant (2-16)
Les vs Nick (3-4)
There's one statistical outlier (1/9). In the other six matchups, the cumulative point differential is 6 points. Les is fine for now. He just needs to get out of the '08 funk and take advantage of his talent on O.
At present, no one needs to consider who Les would be replaced with.
Posted on 1/29/13 at 8:29 pm to liquid rabbit
quote:
Cholly Mac was always on the hot seat, as I recall.
This. Much like Les he followed a coach who had won a national title and lived much of the time in that shadow. Even after beating him at South Carolina.
My Dad always hated Mac. But I as a kid liked him. He would not have survived '74 and '75 in this day and age and over his last 7 years only beat one team that finished the year in the Top 20 and that team 20th in only one of the polls.
Posted on 1/29/13 at 9:08 pm to Tiger Ugly
After Coach Mac "retired" , a State-Times reporter was in Mac's home as he was wrapping glassware, etc, preparing to move away from BR.
"Help Mac Pack", said Cholly..."where are they now?"
"Help Mac Pack", said Cholly..."where are they now?"
Posted on 1/29/13 at 9:31 pm to I-59 Tiger
It was in '74 when expectations were high and LSU didn't live up to expectations.
Posted on 1/29/13 at 9:38 pm to Tiger in Texas
quote:That loss cost Mac an NC matchup.
that Ole Miss loss in '69 was big, that was his best team.
It was a long time ago, but I remember in the 70s LSU kicked their butts regular and returned the favor of losing to Ol Piss for damn near the whole decade prior.
I hated OM with more passion back then.
Posted on 1/29/13 at 10:30 pm to Mayhawman
Regarding Cholly Mac & recruiting, IMHO, it wasn't that he didn't get top-shelf recruits, he just didn't get enough of them.
I still wonder how the immediate post-Mac era would have gone had Bo Rein lived. He seemed to be the right man at the right time & may very well have awoken what my Dad called the sleeping giant.
I still wonder how the immediate post-Mac era would have gone had Bo Rein lived. He seemed to be the right man at the right time & may very well have awoken what my Dad called the sleeping giant.
Posted on 1/29/13 at 10:47 pm to TexTgrTed
One of the best threads ever on the rant!
Posted on 1/29/13 at 11:52 pm to Chicken
quote:
are you suggesting that the sportswriters that covered LSU back then did not burn bridges at LSU for fear of being left in the cold?
Yes Chicken...I guess I am.....lol....
however, they did it in a much more palitable way...they hid the 'grovel' much better than the sportswriters of today.
and if one had ever gone off on an LSU coach like GG does today, he would have been gone before the ink dried...
by the way....'sportscasters never ever ventured much in the way of opinion.....it was all imparting information....really.
Posted on 1/30/13 at 12:16 am to Chicken
My dad was telling me the other night that when he and my mom moved here, 1971, that some doctors in his group had bumper stickers that read, "Help Mac Pack."
Posted on 1/30/13 at 12:41 am to Beltway Bengal
quote:Hmmmm, this sounds quite familiar, even though it's not 1974.
he was criticized for being too focused on defense, too predicable on offense and too loyal to certain assistants.
All these years and the song remains the same. Unlimited potential going to waste.
Remember what ex-Georgia Coach Vince Dooley once said. "If they can ever get the right guy in place at LSU, we might just all be playing for second place." Well Vince, the right guy aint here any longer, but what the hey, we compete for Championships and that's good enough for some.
Posted on 1/30/13 at 12:44 am to cypresstiger
quote:
After Coach Mac "retired" , a State-Times reporter was in Mac's home as he was wrapping glassware, etc, preparing to move away from BR.
"Help Mac Pack", said Cholly..."where are they now?"
Posted on 1/30/13 at 12:55 am to AlwysATgr
quote:
What remains to be seen is if Les will succumb to Bama as did Mac in the 70's
How does that "remain to be seen"? Saban is pretty much marching his arse to the 50-yard line, undressing him and showing him to the nation. Please point out any difference you can discern between Mac and Miles vis-a-vis Alabama.
Posted on 1/30/13 at 1:00 am to AlwysATgr
quote:
One thing is for sure. Not beating Alabama had little or nothing to do with it. I disagree slightly with this. I think it was a factor. Mac had recovered a little form the Miley-Veer debacle, but we were still losing to Bama every year. We had lost 8 straight seasons ('71-'78) before Mac's fate as HC was sealed.
Exactly my point. Mac had lost to Alabama for five years in a row before beating them, then lost another nine in a row before being fired. If beating Alabama were the test, then he never would have lasted 18 years.
Posted on 1/30/13 at 1:07 am to MontanaTiger
quote:
I'll never forget the Advocate headline after the Colorado game "Colorado - Veered Today, Gone Tomorrow!".
Funny. The headline I remembered was "Bengals Bomb Buffaloes 42-14".
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