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Fundamental Right to Vote Question (Choose A or B)
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:26 pm
While 100% voting accuracy is obviously the ultimate goal. That said, that's not going to happen and trade offs will always need to be made.
Which one of the following do you agree with more?
A) It is more important to ensure every American citizens' right to vote and that their vote is counted even if that means some fraudulent votes are also counted.
B)It is more important to ensure fraudulent votes are stopped, even if that means that some American citizens' actual votes are not counted.
Just for argument's sake, as a society, we've decided that in the court system, it is more important that in order to be convicted of a crime, it must meet the high burden of being proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
This means that we prioritize trying to ensure innocent people are not sent to prison even if that means people that actually committed a crime are not able to be convicted.
Which one of the following do you agree with more?
A) It is more important to ensure every American citizens' right to vote and that their vote is counted even if that means some fraudulent votes are also counted.
B)It is more important to ensure fraudulent votes are stopped, even if that means that some American citizens' actual votes are not counted.
Just for argument's sake, as a society, we've decided that in the court system, it is more important that in order to be convicted of a crime, it must meet the high burden of being proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
This means that we prioritize trying to ensure innocent people are not sent to prison even if that means people that actually committed a crime are not able to be convicted.
This post was edited on 8/12/20 at 12:27 pm
22
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:27 pm to NDA13112
Anyone who votes for Biden should immediately be questioned by the authorities to confirm they did actually vote.
If they did, they might need to go to a psychiatrist.
If they did, they might need to go to a psychiatrist.
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:28 pm to NDA13112
B and it should not be possible to vote without ID should be federal law
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:28 pm to NDA13112
You shouldn’t have a right to vote if you dint participate as a tax paying member of society. You should also need to be able to pass a basic Us civics test.
This post was edited on 8/12/20 at 12:30 pm
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:29 pm to NDA13112
quote:
A) It is more important to ensure every American citizens' right to vote and that their vote is counted even if that means some fraudulent votes are also counted.
This dilutes every valid vote by every fraudulent vote.
quote:
B)It is more important to ensure fraudulent votes are stopped, even if that means that some American citizens' actual votes are not counted.
This is not a crazy ideal - this is very doable. Voter ID (which can be fixed with a tax credit or a very, very easy means to make this at no actual cost to the voter) and show up to vote, in person is the norm (and most states have early voting for convenience). Absentee voting should be the exception, but available to the military, those working out of their home area, etc.
It isn't complicated and we don't have to have a vote harvesting system that is literally rife with abuse, corruption and cheating. That's the opposite of Democracy - that's Banana Republic bullshite.
This post was edited on 8/12/20 at 12:30 pm
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:30 pm to NDA13112
I disagree with your choices. Why do we have to not count valid votes, while stopping fraudulent votes.
The key is a SYSTEM that ensure the least amount of fraud possible, which is in-person, ID-mandated voting.
The key is a SYSTEM that ensure the least amount of fraud possible, which is in-person, ID-mandated voting.
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:31 pm to NDA13112
How about we end voting fraud forever by making it punishable by death?
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:31 pm to NDA13112
To answer that question, answer this one:
What is more likely?
A. The majority of fraudulent votes are counted?
B. The majority of legitimate votes are not counted?
What is more likely?
A. The majority of fraudulent votes are counted?
B. The majority of legitimate votes are not counted?
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:32 pm to NDA13112
quote:
A) It is more important to ensure every American citizens' right to vote and that their vote is counted even if that means some fraudulent votes are also counted.
B)It is more important to ensure fraudulent votes are stopped, even if that means that some American citizens' actual votes are not counted.
Neither are ok.
I don't think B exists (actual votes not counted) with our current system except via major fraud.
This post was edited on 8/12/20 at 12:34 pm
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:36 pm to NDA13112
I place equal emphasis on A and B.
False positives and false negatives have equal impact: the outcome not reflecting the will of the people.
False positives and false negatives have equal impact: the outcome not reflecting the will of the people.
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:43 pm to NDA13112
If literally everyone voted for one candidate but the other candidate won due to fraud, what does it matter that everyone got to vote? Having your vote wiped out due to fraud is just as bad as not having a vote in the first place.
Secure the elections.
Secure the elections.
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:45 pm to NDA13112
If a dead person votes and cancels mine then this whole thing is a sham.
Posted on 8/12/20 at 12:59 pm to NDA13112
Closer to (A) than to (B).
All reasonable steps should certainly be taken to limit fraudulent voting, but there is clearly a point at which the "cost" (whether in the form of dollars or in the forum of interference with legitimate voters) will exceed the benefit.
Will I spend $1 to prevent 1 million fraudulent votes? Absolutely. I think everyone would do that.
Will I spend $1 million to prevent that one last fraudulent vote in the entire country? frick no, and I doubt that ANY sane person would do so.
The disagreement lies in identifying the balance point.
For instance, the Right keeps talking about all the jillions and gazillions of illegal aliens who are voting in our elections, but the (Republican) Texas AG recently did a thorough study and found that the instance of voting by illegal aliens is something like 1/100 of one percent of the vote.
Sorry, but I ain't spending one red cent to stop something that is a rounding error on a rounding error. I have higher priorities for my tax dollars ... including keeping them if possible. If the "problem" ever reaches the level of being statistically-material, we can revisit the issue at that time.
All reasonable steps should certainly be taken to limit fraudulent voting, but there is clearly a point at which the "cost" (whether in the form of dollars or in the forum of interference with legitimate voters) will exceed the benefit.
Will I spend $1 to prevent 1 million fraudulent votes? Absolutely. I think everyone would do that.
Will I spend $1 million to prevent that one last fraudulent vote in the entire country? frick no, and I doubt that ANY sane person would do so.
The disagreement lies in identifying the balance point.
For instance, the Right keeps talking about all the jillions and gazillions of illegal aliens who are voting in our elections, but the (Republican) Texas AG recently did a thorough study and found that the instance of voting by illegal aliens is something like 1/100 of one percent of the vote.
Sorry, but I ain't spending one red cent to stop something that is a rounding error on a rounding error. I have higher priorities for my tax dollars ... including keeping them if possible. If the "problem" ever reaches the level of being statistically-material, we can revisit the issue at that time.
This post was edited on 8/12/20 at 1:40 pm
Posted on 8/12/20 at 1:04 pm to NDA13112
This, boys and girls, is what is called a false dichotomy. The two choices aren't an either/or proposition. Stopping fraudulent votes in no way means that some Americans votes will not be counted. Ensuring that every American has the right to vote, and that that vote is counted does not mean that some fraudulent votes must be counted.
So the answer is, yes it is important that every American has the right to vote, and for that vote to be counted, and it is also important to ensure fraudulent votes are stopped.
This is not some unsolvable riddle. Requiring a picture ID to vote alone will go a long way to stopping fraudulent votes. Picture ID is required for damn near everything in this country. It isn't somehow magically made racist to require it to vote.
So the answer is, yes it is important that every American has the right to vote, and for that vote to be counted, and it is also important to ensure fraudulent votes are stopped.
This is not some unsolvable riddle. Requiring a picture ID to vote alone will go a long way to stopping fraudulent votes. Picture ID is required for damn near everything in this country. It isn't somehow magically made racist to require it to vote.
This post was edited on 8/12/20 at 1:08 pm
Posted on 8/12/20 at 1:17 pm to NDA13112
The question is which happens more often. Actual voter fraud is rare as frick whereas there are a sizable number American citizens whose vote is disregarded due to republican bs. You should care about both and frame policy choices around minimizing both. Implementing policies that you know dramatically and knowingly impedes A while doing little to nothing about B is bad policy and antidemocratic.
Posted on 8/12/20 at 1:19 pm to NDA13112
B.
But IMO voting should not be a Fundamental Right. You should earn the right to vote by working and paying in to the government. If you receiver government assistance, you should have to suspend your voting.
you give a bunch of non contributors a voice and you have what we have going on now with the eviction issues.
But IMO voting should not be a Fundamental Right. You should earn the right to vote by working and paying in to the government. If you receiver government assistance, you should have to suspend your voting.
you give a bunch of non contributors a voice and you have what we have going on now with the eviction issues.
This post was edited on 8/12/20 at 1:21 pm
Posted on 8/12/20 at 1:20 pm to NDA13112
B, and there shouldn't be any debate. There should be a damn good reason to not vote in person.
Posted on 8/12/20 at 1:21 pm to NDA13112
B
Posted on 8/12/20 at 1:22 pm to NDA13112
quote:Fraudulent votes *are* an infringement on legal voters. So... you can't have the first part of this premise if you have the second.
A) It is more important to ensure every American citizens' right to vote and that their vote is counted even if that means some fraudulent votes are also counted.
This post was edited on 8/12/20 at 1:24 pm
Posted on 8/12/20 at 1:27 pm to NDA13112
If you are willing to let everyone vote via mail, then you shouldn't have a problem with everyone voting over the internet. Both are awful ideas that will be ripe with fraud.
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