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re: The Fundamental Flaw in every last God/No God thread ever on this board
Posted on 9/21/17 at 3:16 pm to SFVtiger
Posted on 9/21/17 at 3:16 pm to SFVtiger
quote:Not regarding the God of the Bible which is what I was responding to.
but that's just postponing the question.
quote:OK
if you accept the axiom that nothing can come from nothing, then either there is a creator, who lives independently of creation and is self-existent, or the universe(s) have always existed.
quote:We only would have evidence in OUR universe so, by definition, if there are other universes, we would have no evidence on them.
Those propositions are equally plausible. so you look at the evidence, which i THINK is that the universe that we live in is in a state of decay, and there is no present evidence of multiple big bangs.
Alas, by definition, a God capable of making one universe is capable of making more than one.
quote:To me, judging the authenticity by the standards of when it was written makes no sense.
Then there's the secondary question of if there is a creator, did he attempt to reveal himself and his character by the events and testimonies as shown in the Bible and do you judge its authenticity by the same standard as other documents of its age or by a the standards of the day.
God would be independent of time so, he certainly wouldn't feel compelled to teach people according to any particular time's morality.
quote:I honestly have no idea what this means.
then there is the existential evidence of the proposed believer and the ultimate choice of belief.
3
Posted on 9/21/17 at 3:26 pm to ShortyRob
whether you believe there are multiple universes or not is not relevant. Each would have to be examined with the same argument. you would still come down to the original cause, eventually.
of course no one has any evidence that might exist in another universe.
why judge a document's authenticity by a standard that did not exist when it was made. do you question every ancient document the same way? or is there a bias--which is fine, everyone comes to the table with a bias.
one of the biases i work under is that i am a temporal being. I cannot come close to imagining a universe that had no beginning. I can imagine something that comes into existence and exists thereafter. and time as a creation itself. and the experience of living is another bias i have. I've done the math (emotional) and concluded there are no coincidences. but that's just me and i admit it, it's an emotional argument i actually accepted incrementally.
you can disbelieve the bible and still accept the existence of a creator. or at least its equal plausibility. all i'm really trying to say as logically consistent.
of course no one has any evidence that might exist in another universe.
why judge a document's authenticity by a standard that did not exist when it was made. do you question every ancient document the same way? or is there a bias--which is fine, everyone comes to the table with a bias.
one of the biases i work under is that i am a temporal being. I cannot come close to imagining a universe that had no beginning. I can imagine something that comes into existence and exists thereafter. and time as a creation itself. and the experience of living is another bias i have. I've done the math (emotional) and concluded there are no coincidences. but that's just me and i admit it, it's an emotional argument i actually accepted incrementally.
you can disbelieve the bible and still accept the existence of a creator. or at least its equal plausibility. all i'm really trying to say as logically consistent.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 3:26 pm to ShortyRob
I don't get the distinction/point of this multiple universe idea in relation to this discussion(or my earlier point) that if there was somehow shown to be a "creator" of THIS universe, then at the very least the Bible was sort of onto something.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:11 pm to ShortyRob
quote:yes it does. you can say that this universe came into being through some proximate cause but, all things had to come from some ultimate creative cause (ex nihilo, nihil fit) which dovetails exactly with what the bible says
Not regarding the God of the Bible which is what I was responding to
quote:and how does this not agree with what the bible says? the bible doesn't contradict this because it says that all things were ultimately created by God, which is true
We only would have evidence in OUR universe
quote:what makes you think anyone is making the case he has done that? the revelations recorded in the bible are not about the morals of a particular time. they are about God's character, which is timeless, et al
he certainly wouldn't feel compelled to teach people according to any particular time's morality
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