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re: When did the German soldiers of WWII realize they were the 'bad guys'?
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:47 pm to SCLSUMuddogs
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:47 pm to SCLSUMuddogs
quote:
Mein Kampf is ripe with anti-semitic content
Which nobody used to be bothered by.
I'm reading some Dostoyevsky and he uses "Yid" pejoratively and casually.
2
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:52 pm to uway
The OP's question can be answered pretty easily, without devolving the conversation into who saw which atrocity or committed it.
We spent the better part of a decade running De-Nazification programs in the Western sectors. Close tabs were kept on ex-Nazis by the Western intelligence services throughout their adult lives-- and in some of the more noteworthy cases, there were arrests and executions of those most easily proven culpable.
At no time during the war, is it likely that the average German soldier thought of themselves as 'the bad guy'. Perhaps the guy who was winning early, or losing late, but never the bad guy-- at that point, there would have been no point in continuing a desperate resistance later in the war, when there was some of the most savage, bitter, and close quarters fighting.
We spent the better part of a decade running De-Nazification programs in the Western sectors. Close tabs were kept on ex-Nazis by the Western intelligence services throughout their adult lives-- and in some of the more noteworthy cases, there were arrests and executions of those most easily proven culpable.
At no time during the war, is it likely that the average German soldier thought of themselves as 'the bad guy'. Perhaps the guy who was winning early, or losing late, but never the bad guy-- at that point, there would have been no point in continuing a desperate resistance later in the war, when there was some of the most savage, bitter, and close quarters fighting.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:53 pm to TigerstuckinMS
some Jews claimed there were masturbation machines that killed people, others claimed they cut some Jewish people into lampshades, others said they cut them into soap. all turned out to be false of course.
I wonder what else they are lying about.
I wonder what else they are lying about.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:54 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
Please provide these books that say the vast majority of Wehrmacht forces were attached to Einsatzgruppen and witnessed massacres. Again, that regular German forces were at times obliged to aid in Einsatzgruppen activities or to even engage in massacres themselves in not disputed
I can't speak for the other poster but I'm not arguing that the vast majority were attached to the Einsatzgruppen. My point and personal belief is that a lot of ordinary German soldiers and civilians knew at least some of what was going on. People talk and soldiers gossip as much as anyone. I can't find a link but I remember reading about a line that parents would tell an unruly child...something along the lines of "You better be good or it's up the chimney with you." That didn't just come out of thin air.
There was a concerted effort by the Wermacht after the war to distance themselves from the atrocities and place all of the blame on the SS.
A couple of recent books on the subject are Hitler's Willing Executioner's and What We Knew
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:58 pm to SadSouthernBuck
quote:
German soldiers and civilians knew at least some of what was going on
Like our grandparents all knew about Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki?
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:06 pm to Undertow
Probably in January 1943. General Von Paulus BEGGED Hitler to allow his sixth Army to retreat from Stalingrad intact to live to fight another day. Hitler's response was to promote Von Paulus to Field Marshall, stating that a Field Marshall had NEVER before surrendered, and made him stay. The results were disastrous for the German Army. The rank and file of the German Army had to see the insanity of that and realize they were on the wrong side.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:11 pm to SadSouthernBuck
quote:
My point and personal belief is that a lot of ordinary German soldiers and civilians knew at least some of what was going on. People talk and soldiers gossip as much as anyone.
I guess it's pointless to dissuade someone from a belief since at that point we are not talking about logic any longer, but what you are saying is just not supported by facts. You do realize that the extermination process didn't begin in earnest until late in the war, right? And that even though we had broken their code, WE didn't know about it until we came upon the camps? They didn't have cell phones, or phones at all in the field for that matter, or the internet, or Facebook, or Alex Jones on the radio. They were sleeping in mud, covered in lice, shivering without winter coats, had no contact with the outside world, but yet you think they knew about an operation being conducted in secret by the party (they were Wehrmacht and the death camps were SS - and a special division within the SS at that) 1,000 miles away, begun AFTER they went to battle, that not even our highest intelligence services knew of?
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:11 pm to uway
frick you. Snivelling liberal revisionism aside, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were NOT evil. That is how total war SHOULD be fought. They got what they deserved based upon their actions and refusal to surrender. Also, you forgot the fire bombing of Tokyo which killed as many if not more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Go get in your safe space and fondle some play-do, snowflake.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:13 pm to uway
Yes, but blaming WW1 on the Jews and calling for their eradication is a far cry from calling someone a kike
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:14 pm to Undertow
Evil huh.... like the Russians??
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:16 pm to Undertow
Most never did. Hitler turned the country into an economic powerhouse from a depression. They loved the guy. He wanted to reunite all of Germany which was taken from them in ww1 treaties. Judea declared war on Germany first it 1933. Germany was filled with debauchery and poverty before Hitler and we all know who they blamed.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:16 pm to SCLSUMuddogs
quote:I have a new image for your avatar:
SCLSUMuddogs
This post was edited on 7/18/17 at 5:17 pm
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:19 pm to HubbaBubba
Lol that's great! Thanks man
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:19 pm to geaux88
quote:
Probably in January 1943. General Von Paulus BEGGED Hitler to allow his sixth Army to retreat from Stalingrad intact to live to fight another day. Hitler's response was to promote Von Paulus to Field Marshall, stating that a Field Marshall had NEVER before surrendered, and made him stay. The results were disastrous for the German Army. The rank and file of the German Army had to see the insanity of that and realize they were on the wrong side.
Not even that, man. Stalingrad in and of itself was pointless. It could have easily been isolated and bypassed and the army could have continued on to their oilfield-capturing objective to the SE. Everything after insisting on laying seige to Stalingrad was just insult to unnecessary injury. Yes refusing to allow Von Paulus to retreat was madness, but he should have never been in a position of having to retreat in the first place had Hitler not been personally obsessed with Stalingrad.
People insist that the Eastern Front was doomed from the beginning or that the war was lost when the Germans ground to a halt just a few miles short of Moscow, but I don't agree with either position. Had Stalingrad been bypassed and that army group reached its objective intact and able to pivot, the game would have still been very, very much on come spring.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:20 pm to SadSouthernBuck
quote:
My point and personal belief is that a lot of ordinary German soldiers and civilians knew at least some of what was going on. People talk and soldiers gossip as much as anyone.
A lot of Europeans knew, secret is.... they were fine with Germany taking care of their "Jew problem"
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:22 pm to Vegas Eddie
After the war, many Jews were moved into camps. Some didn't want them back.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:25 pm to Cooter Davenport
Cooter... have an upvote sir! Great analysis! Deeper than mine was... (thumbs up for you). I'd enjoy talking history with you sir.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:27 pm to geaux88
quote:
rick you. Snivelling liberal revisionism aside, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were NOT evil. That is how total war SHOULD be fought. They got what they deserved based upon their actions and refusal to surrender. Also, you forgot the fire bombing of Tokyo which killed as many if not more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Go get in your safe space and fondle some play-do, snowflake
Hello, shallow thinker.
Are you a Christian that is fine with the indiscriminate killing of non-combatant women and children? So fine with it that you spew hate at anyone who questions it?
You might be an idiot.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:36 pm to Undertow
If only the Germans could've killed more Russians.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 5:45 pm to uway
LOL. You are weak and pathetic in your attempt to pigeon hole me into one your little millennial SJW safe space friendly boxes that fit into your fundamental lack of historical knowledge of history.
I may be an idiot, but I'll go ahead and bet on myself against you when it comes to morals, values, education level, places travelled and number of passport/visa stamps, foreign languages spoken (ironically I speak German, even though I'm Irish), and contributions to this republic.
Try again, little sniveling snowflake. Take your gender studies degree with 120K of student loan debt and get your dream job as a 9 dollar an hour barista at Starbucks (because that's all it is good for)..... go ahead and pontificate with the awesome fire of your searing razor sharp intellect.
When you actually have the ability to get out of your little bubble and pull the cock of whatever liberal deranged "professor" that "taught" you your non-truthful take on the way the world is, and you grow up enough to burp up his baby batter pablum that he shot down your throat to form you into a mindless SJW zombie, get back to me with a cogent argument. Maybe then I can sit down with you and start teaching you the good, bad, and ugly of REAL history.
I may be an idiot, but I'll go ahead and bet on myself against you when it comes to morals, values, education level, places travelled and number of passport/visa stamps, foreign languages spoken (ironically I speak German, even though I'm Irish), and contributions to this republic.
Try again, little sniveling snowflake. Take your gender studies degree with 120K of student loan debt and get your dream job as a 9 dollar an hour barista at Starbucks (because that's all it is good for)..... go ahead and pontificate with the awesome fire of your searing razor sharp intellect.
When you actually have the ability to get out of your little bubble and pull the cock of whatever liberal deranged "professor" that "taught" you your non-truthful take on the way the world is, and you grow up enough to burp up his baby batter pablum that he shot down your throat to form you into a mindless SJW zombie, get back to me with a cogent argument. Maybe then I can sit down with you and start teaching you the good, bad, and ugly of REAL history.
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