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re: Robert E. Lee has been misrepresented by regressive "historians"

Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:00 pm to
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:00 pm to
quote:

People win. The defeated merely think they have won. The states which seceded prior to Fort Sumter, with the possible exception of Texas, seceded primarily to protect the institution of slavery.


Thanks for leaving out the part where I said I'm glad the north won. Lee early on was keeping the north out of Richmond. He did go on the offensive to try and drive the army out of Virginia.

The Seven Days Campaign was to get the union army out of Virginia
This post was edited on 5/22/17 at 12:04 pm
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124360 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:03 pm to
quote:

and why did virginia secede?

to keep slavery.

just stop. please.
Irrelevant in this context.
If Virginia had outlawed slavery and allied with Lincoln, Lee would have fought for Virginia against the South.

What part of that is unclear?
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:07 pm to
quote:

He had been on the offensive since he took command in June 1862. The Seven Days' Campaign was an offensive campaign; the Second Manassas Campaign was an offensive campaign; the Maryland Campaign was an offensive campaign; the Chancellorsville Campaign was an offensive campaign. The only campaign he fought while primarily on the defensive, between June 1862 and May 1864, was the Fredericksburg Campaign.


The 7 day campaign, Manassas, and Chancellorsville, were all to get the Union out of Virginia
Posted by montanagator
Member since Jun 2015
16957 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:15 pm to
In terms of generalship, Whiskey's point about defensive technology dominating is a good one- Lee was a Napoleonic commander tactically and with the introduction of widespread rifling some Napoleonic tactics became downright suicidal.
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
64560 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:17 pm to
R.E. Lee was one of the finest gentleman this country has or will ever produce.

Period.
Posted by deltaland
Member since Mar 2011
91039 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:29 pm to
Lee was a honorable man and a gentleman. It's disgusting how historians have vilified him.

It was documented that he refused to fight against his own friends and family in Virginia and was loyal to Virginia.

People don't understand this concept today, because we travel abroad so much. Back then men felt more loyalty to their own state than the country
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:36 pm to
quote:

There were, and are, no such thing. Exports of US goods may not be taxed per the Constitution.

You are correct, I'm wrong on that. It was rising tariffs and the south was receiving less from cotton trades, as north was taking more and more.


What the frick? Can't you get it - cotton trade had no effect on national revenue.

Tariff money was the revenue of the federal government.

Southerners controlled the federal government even when Lincoln was elected. There were more southern Justices than northern; the Speaker of the House was usually a southerner. The slave power could always block any legislation it didn't like as long as it had an equal number of senators to all other parties.

"The title of “Democrat” has its beginnings in the South, going back to the founding of the Democratic-Republican Party in 1793 by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. It held to small government principles and distrusted the national government. Foreign policy was a major issue. After being the dominant party in U.S. politics from 1800 to 1829, the Democratic-Republicans split into two factions by 1828: the federalist National Republicans, and the Democrats. The Democrats and Whigs were evenly balanced in the 1830s and 1840s. However, by the 1850s, the Whigs disintegrated. Other opposition parties emerged but the Democrats were dominant. Northern Democrats were in serious opposition to Southern Democrats on the issue of slavery; Northern Democrats, led by Stephen Douglas, believed in Popular Sovereignty—letting the people of the territories vote on slavery. The conservative Southern Democrats, reflecting the views of the late John C. Calhoun, insisted slavery was national.

The Democrats controlled the national government from 1852 until 1860, and Presidents Pierce and Buchanan were friendly to Southern interests. In the North, the newly formed anti-slavery Republican Party came to power, and dominated the electoral college. In the 1860 presidential election, the Republicans nominated Abraham Lincoln, but the divide among Democrats led to the nomination of two candidates: John C. Breckinridge of Kentucky represented Southern Democrats, and Stephen A. Douglas of Illinois represented Northern Democrats. Nevertheless, the Republicans had a majority of the electoral vote regardless of how the opposition split or joined together and Abraham Lincoln was elected."

LINK
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:44 pm to
quote:

If Virginia had outlawed slavery and allied with Lincoln, Lee would have fought for Virginia against the South.


Well, no. According to what he said, had Virginia not rebelled against the lawful government, he would have willingly led U.S. forces against rebellious forces elsewhere.
Posted by troyt37
Member since Mar 2008
13355 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:49 pm to
quote:

Why people on either side of this issue care so much about the Civil War will always be lost on me. Don't get me wrong, I'm a history buff with the best of them. But this shite truly does not matter


You're no history buff.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905

That will also apply to those who misremember, whitewash, obfuscate, and change facts about the past.

Exhibit #1, Germany.
Posted by Tiguar
Montana
Member since Mar 2012
33131 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:54 pm to
Somewhat true, somewhat false.

While the technology was becoming widespread, resources did not allow for much training, and rifles handled much differently than smoothbore weapons. Plus, after a few vollies, smoke negated the distance advantage rifles possess.

Were soldiers adequately familiar with how to aim and handle rifles, casualties would have been MUCH higher.

Great read on why civil war generals mostly stuck to napoleanic tactics despite rifles being present lurking around the OT.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:54 pm to


Wow. That doesn't make any sense. Sooo... the usurpers took power, were somehow deposed by, I guess, the Slave Power, and then were reinstated by the damn yankees?

What actually happened in Louisiana was that a new "free state" constitution was created after 10% of the voters from 1860 agreed to it. That was President Lincoln's model that he saw happening in all of the "so-called seceded states".

No state has ever been out of the Union for an instant. That was Lincoln's position.

You always hear, "if Lincoln had only lived to conduct reconstruction." Reconstruction actually began well before his death.

Posted by magildachunks
Member since Oct 2006
32502 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:56 pm to
quote:

You're no history buff. “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905 That will also apply to those who misremember, whitewash, obfuscate, and change facts about the past. Exhibit #1, Germany.



True example #1: Southern apologists and "Lost Cause" romantics who succeeded in changing the image of their heroes after the Civil War.

Especially the image of Lee.
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
65147 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 12:58 pm to
quote:

Thanks for leaving out the part where I said I'm glad the north won.


You're welcome because my response had nothing to do with you being glad the north won. I was merely replying to your assertion that no one ever wins the argument. This is not true. Anyone who actually reads the literature that was being written in the South in the weeks after Lincoln's election will come to the conclusion that the Deep South seceded over the question of slavery.

quote:

The Seven Days Campaign was to get the union army out of Virginia



But, as you alluded to above, it was still an offensive operation. My point still stands.
This post was edited on 5/22/17 at 12:59 pm
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
65147 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 1:00 pm to
quote:

The 7 day campaign, Manassas, and Chancellorsville, were all to get the Union out of Virginia



But they were still offensive operations. The only time Lee ever waged a defensive campaign against the Union in Virginia prior to 1864 was at Fredericksburg.
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 1:01 pm to
quote:

But, as you alluded to above, it was still an offensive operation. My point still stands.


Seriously? They were driving the north out of Virginia. A defensive strategy.
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 1:03 pm to
quote:

But they were still offensive operations


Yes, offensive operations for a defensive strategy. They were defending Virginia, so they attempt to drive the north out of Virginia in an offensive operation with the overall goal to DEFEND Virginia.
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 1:04 pm to
quote:

You're welcome because my response had nothing to do with you being glad the north won. I was merely replying to your assertion that no one ever wins the argument. This is not true. Anyone who actually reads the literature that was being written in the South in the weeks after Lincoln's election will come to the conclusion that the Deep South seceded over the question of slavery.


There are thousands of documents that support both arguments. It's a worthless argument. People pre,during, and post civil war were arguing the reasoning for the war.
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
65147 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 1:07 pm to
quote:

Seriously? They were driving the north out of Virginia. A defensive strategy.


If you are attacking you are on the offensive.

Yes, the Union army invaded the state of Virginia for the purposes of offensive operations. What made Lee such an effective commander, however, was his ability to take the initiative away from his opponent. McClellan was on the offensive in Virginia until Lee launched his offensive starting at Beaver Dam Creek. From that moment on, McClellan had lost the initiative and fought on the defensive for the entirety of the Seven Days' Campaign.

Same thing with Pope at Second Manassas and Hooker at Chancellorsville. Both started out as offensive operations for the Union that ended with the Union army on the defensive.

Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
65147 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 1:08 pm to
quote:

There are thousands of documents that support both arguments.


No there are not. The vast majority of documents supporting the so-called states' rights argument weren't produced until the post-war period.
Posted by Crowknowsbest
Member since May 2012
25891 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 1:15 pm to
Lee's legacy is a complicated one, just like most historical figures.

As a man, he was by most accounts a model gentleman with a highly refined sense of honor and discipline, at least as that would be defined at the time. He also clearly felt fiercely loyal to Virginia.

On the other side of that, he was definitely racist (as most white men were at the time) and owned slaves. He also seems to be somewhat "cold" personality-wise, as would be expected from someone who lives their entire adult life in a military environment with all the discipline and combat experience that includes. That coldness shows up in his treatment of his slaves and his military decisions at times, at least imo. By contrast, his personal letters show a very loving husband, etc.

His legacy as a general is simpler. A high-level tactician who won a lot with less resources but made some critical mistakes, most notably at Gettysburg. The loss of Jackson was big. Ultimately, his army held out longer than they should have been able to because of its leadership (not just Lee).
This post was edited on 5/22/17 at 1:16 pm
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