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Message
re: Scientist says he found definitive proof that God exists
Posted on 6/9/16 at 9:44 am to TheCaterpillar
Posted on 6/9/16 at 9:44 am to TheCaterpillar
I don't think down on people that are religious. Most people I know and love are religious. I, myself, am not an outright atheist, but lean towards an agnostic POV.
I just can’t help but be befuddled at educated adults who can’t come to grips with the fact not everything in religious text is true.
A. It’s been thousands of years and dozens of translations.
B. Science has, undoubtedly, rebuked a ton of stuff in all religious texts. It doesn't make those texts worthless. It just means they were written by people that thought the Earth was flat, which wasn't their fault.
C. As adults, one should be able to harmonize science and religion. They can live together.
The people that allow science and religion to co-exist are much easier to understand. Hell, even the Pope has come around on a lot of that stuff
I just can’t help but be befuddled at educated adults who can’t come to grips with the fact not everything in religious text is true.
A. It’s been thousands of years and dozens of translations.
B. Science has, undoubtedly, rebuked a ton of stuff in all religious texts. It doesn't make those texts worthless. It just means they were written by people that thought the Earth was flat, which wasn't their fault.
C. As adults, one should be able to harmonize science and religion. They can live together.
The people that allow science and religion to co-exist are much easier to understand. Hell, even the Pope has come around on a lot of that stuff
1
Posted on 6/9/16 at 9:49 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
I just can’t help but be befuddled at educated adults who can’t come to grips with the fact not everything in religious text is true.
I think most understand that the bible does tell fables to make points
I just don't think many attribute Adam and Eve as one of those fables
but
Posted on 6/9/16 at 9:49 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
I know I'm probably doing a piss poor job of trying to explain all this.
Honestly...you're not. It's just that you have a pretty terrible subject to defend. That's not your fault...people far smarter than you (not a shot, just a fact) have been unable to square this circle for a thousand+ years. If it was easy, or frankly doable, there wouldn't be row after row of apologetic books at your local bookstore trying to convince people. One would have sufficed and done it perfectly.
And with my inclusion in this thread...anchor's away, my friends...
Posted on 6/9/16 at 9:49 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
Wait... ...there are adults that actually believe in Adam and Eve? Like 2 people, one made from a rib and ate a forbidden fruit, started all the billions on Earth? I thought even Christians agreed for the most part that the bible has a ton of “fables” there just to teach a story. Like Adam and Eve, Jonah, Noah, etc.
This is another aspect of the Christian faith. According to the Christian faith the God is the Word and the Word is God. Either we accept all of the Word as truth or we reject it as false. We cannot pick and choose which parts suit us and which parts don't.
Now does that mean I believe the earth is 6,000 years old? No. Nowhere in the bible does it say how old the earth is. The notion of the earth being 6,000 years old came along around the middle ages (I think that's when it was anyway.) Me personally, I'm not going to claim to know how old the earth is. I know it's older than 6,000 years though. I know there use to be animals that no longer exist that we call dinosaurs, along with a myriad of other types of animals that have since vanished. I also believe in science. But I also believe what science can teach us is a bit of the "how" and maybe even the "why" God created everything along with perhaps giving us a better understanding of his creation.
This post was edited on 6/9/16 at 9:52 am
Posted on 6/9/16 at 9:52 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
...there are adults that actually believe in Adam and Eve?
This was the thought that started me down to the path to not believing. First, I realized the story had to be a fable. Then I started questioning the whole reason for Jesus to "save" believers from their original sin. So, what is the point of all of it? To me, if someone is a Christian, it seems rather important to believe in the story of Adam and Eve. I'd be interested to hear an explanation on where my thought process if off, though.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 9:55 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
This was the thought that started me down to the path to not believing. First, I realized the story had to be a fable. Then I started questioning the whole reason for Jesus to "save" believers from their original sin. So, what is the point of all of it? To me, if someone is a Christian, it seems rather important to believe in the story of Adam and Eve. I'd be interested to hear an explanation on where my thought process if off, though.
There's no way to explain where your thought process is "off" because there is no way to give proof of Adam and Eve. This goes back to it requiring faith, the belief in that which you cannot see and cannot be proven.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 9:58 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
This goes back to it requiring faith, the belief in that which you cannot see and cannot be proven.
I get this argument for simple belief in God, but I still think it doesn't go into the logical argument. If Jesus coming down to Earth was about saving man from original sin, I feel like it is important to believe the story of original sin, right?
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:01 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
I get this argument for simple belief in God, but I still think it doesn't go into the logical argument. If Jesus coming down to Earth was about saving man from original sin, I feel like it is important to believe the story of original sin, right?
like I said above, wither we accept all of the Word as truth or none of it is true. There cannot be anything in between. I know the idea of absolutes is anathema nowadays, and in some regards absolutes do not fit in every situation. but when it comes to the Bible, there is an absolute. And that absolute is wither we accept all of it as truth or none of it.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:10 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
like I said above, wither we accept all of the Word as truth or none of it is true. There cannot be anything in between. I know the idea of absolutes is anathema nowadays, and in some regards absolutes do not fit in every situation. but when it comes to the Bible, there is an absolute. And that absolute is wither we accept all of it as truth or none of it.
Well it has been thousands of years and most likely 20+ translations of that text.
Surely you can't believe the modern version is the same as the original version, correct?
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:13 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
But which god? There are tens of thousands and some much older than others...
Jesus....a Jew
Mohammed.....it's true
Jesus.....a Jew
Mohammed.....it's true
Jesus.....a Jew
Mohammed.....it's true
All sons of Abraham.
Father Abraham....
Extra points for anyone that can tell me where that quote came from. But I believe that every capable human that's ever lived believes in "God." Now, we may differ in what we call him/her/it, and we certainly perceive and visualize what Him/HerI/It is and what It can do/does. But if you ponder who were are, how'd we get here, why are we here like surely almost every man or woman has since we walked out of the cave, if you go back far enough--to the beginning--you have to believe in something that got this whole thing started. I may call it God, you may call it The Big Bang, some may call it Allah--or Yahweh--or Mother Nature, whatever. But if you trace it back far enough, the initial spark just can't be properly explained, so we all wrestle with that in our minds and what we settle on is God, no matter what name we give Him/Her/It.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:14 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
Well it has been thousands of years and most likely 20+ translations of that text.
Surely you can't believe the modern version is the same as the original version, correct?
Most are not in my opinion. Again though, I'm a terrible option to try and discuss these matters. I am a believer in Christ and do my best to follow Him. But To be honest, I'm terrible at it and I freely admit as much. Any good in me is from him, not me. Left to myself, I'm a terrible person.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:36 am to Darth_Vader
Didn't read past the first few pages, but keep in mind that Kaku and Neil Degrass Tyson are science popularizers but don't speak for the physics community like many on here like to claim they do. Both are very intelligent and accomplished in their own ways, but have become science personalities more so than scientists. Not to the same degree as Bill Nye, but same idea.
Not to discredit either because like I said they are both intelligent and know more about the topics than I'm sure any on here do, but science is a process not a person. Just be careful ascribing proof just because a well known personality said so. There are plenty of theoretical physicists out there spending all day and night with the gears in their head churning that I'm sure have differing opinions than Kaku or Tyson, they just aren't on TV all of the time.
Not to discredit either because like I said they are both intelligent and know more about the topics than I'm sure any on here do, but science is a process not a person. Just be careful ascribing proof just because a well known personality said so. There are plenty of theoretical physicists out there spending all day and night with the gears in their head churning that I'm sure have differing opinions than Kaku or Tyson, they just aren't on TV all of the time.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:37 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
This is another misconception. You don't just say your"accept" him. You have to repent from sin. The term "repent" is key. It does not mean to say you're sorry for something or merely confess something. Repent means to turn away from something. So to become a follower of Chirst one must turn away from their sin. And that's no even close to being easy and the truth of the matter is all of us, myself included, fall short constantly.
Not really. All you need to do to get to Heaven is genuinely accept Jesus as your Savior. You don't have to repent. God's grace did the rest. However, the thinking is that if you truly accept Christ, repentance will follow. The same thing with good works. They won't get you into Heaven, but if you genuinely are a Christian and following Christ, good works will naturally follow.
Now earlier I said everybody--on some level--believes in "God" of some sort. No matter if they admit it or what they call it. However, there are many strong--and legitimate--views on the afterlife. Some believe in another dimension Heaven, some believe in Heaven on Earth, some in reincarnation, some in some ethereal cosmic energy, and others straight up oblivion. I struggle with this greatly. Intellectually, I understand our subconscious desire--rather need--as both individuals and as a species to believe in some sort of afterlife. Oblivion--at least to me--is infinitely more frightening than Hell(which I don't believe in, but more on that later). Not existing is terrifying. So, being aware of this, if I'm being intellectually honest, I can't trust my own beliefs on an afterlife, because I know--deep down--my motivations aren't pure.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:37 am to Darth_Vader
I'm amazed that there are people that still take the Bible as the literal word of god, but I respect that more than the hypocrites that don't.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:38 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
quote:
To me it is clear that we exists in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
quote:
this doesn't sound like "God" to me
What does the universe being designed and created by a universal intelligence sound like to you then? What is this intelligence that did all of this?
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:41 am to Hot Carl
quote:
Not really. All you need to do to get to Heaven is genuinely accept Jesus as your Savior. You don't have to repent. God's grace did the rest. However, the thinking is that if you truly accept Christ, repentance will follow. The same thing with good works. They won't get you into Heaven, but if you genuinely are a Christian and following Christ, good works will naturally follow
You said it far better than did.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:45 am to Hot Carl
quote:
Oblivion--at least to me--is infinitely more frightening than Hell(which I don't believe in, but more on that later). Not existing is terrifying.
I suppose I'm a little weird for it, but I'm the exact opposite. I find it comforting.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:46 am to TheCaterpillar
Like I said, man has a difficult time grasping this concept.
But yes, accepting Christ is all you have to do.
You don't have to kill non-believers or stone sinners or judge others or wear sackcloth or not eat certain foods or abstain from alcohol.
But yes, accepting Christ is all you have to do.
You don't have to kill non-believers or stone sinners or judge others or wear sackcloth or not eat certain foods or abstain from alcohol.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:13 am to Pecker
quote:
The problem is that it is a FAITH-based belief system. Trying to find proof that God exists, undermines the notion that one can find salvation through faith. If you find definitive, scientific proof that God exists, then your beliefs no long require faith. Believing in gravity doesn't require faith. We know it exists and can demonstrate it and account for it scientifically. God has revealed himself to us through the Bible. That should be all the evidence we need. If you need science to legitimize your beliefs, then your faith (and true belief) is questionable to begin with.
Theologically, this is likely true, but it doesn't hold up to logic. If God created us, then he also instilled in us an intellectual curiosity. A pioneering spirit. We are innately explorers and seekers of knowledge(which He instilled in us for our species' survival), so He would have known that there was no arbitrary line in the sand of knowledge that we know to stop at. How could He be against our trying to prove His existence if our trying is born of the very nature He created within us?
Also--and this is partly why I don't believe in Hell--I don't think it's possible to choose to believe anything. You either do or you don't. You believe things based solely on two things: 1) your intellect(nature) and 2) your experiences(nurture). That's it. You and the whole rest of the world could tell me 1+1= 3, but I couldn't choose to believe it. Because based on my resources, I believe 1+1= 2. I can't just choose to believe it doesn't. Or my shirt right now--I believe it's blue. Every person I pass today may tell me how nice my red shirt is, but I can't just choose to believe it's red. Because I believe it's blue--no matter how detrimental that or any belief may be to me.
By the same logical token, I don't think you can "choose" to believe in God. You use what you have and form a belief, but you can't make yourself believe something. There is no choice. You either believe it or you don't. Through no fault--or credit--of your own. You can't just choose. Which is why I can't logically think that a fair and just God, especially the benevolent one of the New Testament, could hold anyone accountable for not believing in Him, when they are using the very tools that He(presumably) instilled in them Himself.
It's also why I cringe whenever I see those bumper stickers or get those chain emails saying basically "If you're right, nothing happens, but if you're wrong... Well, enjoy that eternity in hell." Their argument for believing is basically just to cover your bases. That's not true belief. That's not genuine. Because, again, you can't choose what you believe. You either do or you don't.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:14 am to Commandeaux
quote:
Commandeaux
So much bravo, sir. So much.
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